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Messages from May-July 2004 "Arrival of the Bee Box" - I agreed with my boyfriend that it sounds as if it's Sylvia Plath describing the Internet! If you didn't know it was written in 1962, you could easily think "the box of maniacs" was a contemporary reference to peering into an Internet "chat room", where so many people "gather". I could go on and on with this theory, but it sounds a bit daft, I am aware. But still, could the "bee box" have been television? Radio? "There is only a little grid, no exit". Not knowing the exact definition of a "grid", I looked it up and in the domains of "Electrical Engineering" and "Energy", the word "grid" has many specific meanings to do with technology. These are only two very broad meanings: Industry jargon referring to the interconnected power lines that constitute the transmission/distribution networks. A common term referring to an electricity transmission and distribution system (Source http:dictionary.reference.com/search?q=grid ) I've no idea what the "swarmy feeling of African hands/Minute and shrunk for export" is a reference to. I won't go all out trying to argue a "case" for anything, however (well, at least not now). I like "The Arrival of the Bee Box" so much as a poem, but I've never known what it's actually about - and I'm not sure that the inspiration was literally a "Bee Box"! I think it could have been some other inanimate object, and she deployed her bee hive[s] like a metaphor within another metaphor, so to speak. Anastasia Charrier
I believe the reference in "Lady Lazarus" regarding the first suicide/death at 10 has to do with an accident Plath had at this age. As far as I remember, she fell and hit her head on a rock and was badly injured. She made a full recovery but the trauma of the accident remained with her as a returning from death (like Lazarus). She returned from a critical accident at 10, recovered (albeit against her will) from a suicide attempt at 20, and foretold her next venture into death. Laura
Hello Bumblebee, might I say how much I like your cute nickname? Welcome to the site, it can be a wonderful site to visit. I was very intriguled by your last posts, it is extremely interesting to me that Ted Hughes claims to have seen the spectre of Sylvia Plath becaue it has also been documented that his lover, the woman who came between them, [Assia Wevill] also claims to have been "haunted" by Sylvia's ghost. She claimed to have seen her dozens of times and not just three. It is cause for wonder and/or speculation. Some people believe that when a person dies under stressed or violent circumstances that are rage filled, there is a tendency to wander or to resist the natural order of leaving the material world behind. I often wonder if for Sylvia that was what happened to her spirit after death. I also agree that she did not truly intend to die, but did what she did as a cry for attention from Hughes. I will always believe that she presumed she would be saved that morning, Feb. 11th. I am currently writing a paper on the (in my mind) reality of wandering spirits, hauntings and how they effect the living. There have been so many books written about this topic, and one other soon to be released book is the much awaited biograhpy of (Assia Wevill) that will shed new light on the whole story. The writer, a wonderfully talented and gracious woman, has been documenting and gathering information for nearly seventeen years and it will probably create quite a stir when it is finally published. I know I am eagerly awaiting the release of this book, which will be about 300 pages or so, with many I believe, previously unpublished photos and other yummy tidbits of info. Thank you for your interesting posts and I look forward to reading more of them! Catherine, I have read all the Plath poems you mentioned and I do believe that the manner in which she mentions her "foot" is indeed metaphor, and also in my mind, a way of expressing a kind of helplessness or clumsy inability to act. These are only my opinions and I apologize first hand if my opinions offend any sentitive readers. Best wishes to you all. Therresa Kennedy
Peter Steinberg--do you remember which issue of SAQ that was?--I'd still like to review his ms, awfulness and all; the chapter printed in the Butscher study is, shall we say, inadvertently revelatory--sentences like this; "Our relationship began to falter. Sylvia seemed to need to know that I was there, in the distance, as a sustaining force, but she sometimes had to suggest strongly that I not come up from Boston for the weekend, where my ship was in the Charlestown Naval Shipyard. Or, if I came up, she wanted me to limit my visit to one night, staying in my fraternity house at Amherst. Apparently I provided Sylvia with a sense of security for the future and with a very sympathetic ear." Evidently, he had a density somewhere between that of water and heavy water, but only a nuclear physicist could calibrate it well.... Also, in re my file; as far as I can tell, Henri Poole of Wikipedia and Affero still has it and will not let go of it; however, as a businessman, I bet he is responsive to the siren song of money, so if you send that $100 you offered me to Henry Poole, 3401 Ashby Berkeley USA, he'll probably send it to you--and then if you'll send me copies of it, researchers can access it. It's worth a try, don't you think?--and yes, this letter authorizes you. Good luck. Let's hope this works. Kenneth Jones
Hi, this is my first post on the main board - I've been reading it a while and enjoying it hugely. I wanted to try and give some more info in answer to the two questions posed in the last post, but what I can remember comes from so many different sources it's hard to put it together! As far as I know, SP didn't have a problem with her feet. Her father had his leg (lower leg I think) amputated due to diabetes causing gangrene to start in his foot. (This is something it's thought could probably have been avoided if he had gone for treatment sooner. I have read that he assumed he had cancer and he didn't want to go for treatment or anything - by the time he did finally have to go, it turned out to be diabetes which could probably have been treated but was far advanced by that point. Hence, some people believe, SP's feeling that her father in a sense 'committed suicide' by ignoring his illness until it was too late). I'm assuming that if the foot references in her poetry have a meaning, it would probably be to do with the amputation. The accident/suicide attempt she refers to at the age of 10 - I've only read about this in one biography and I cannot remember which one (although it may be Rough Magic by Paul Alexander). The biographer interviewed a friend of SP's who remembered her telling him that she had cut her throat when she was 10 but that it had been an accident. She seemed to say it rather jokingly and the friend wasn't sure if she was telling the truth about it being an accident or whether it was a suicide attempt or self-harm. SP did, however, show the friend the scar on her throat - there was definitely one there, according to this friend. Hope this helps. Morney Wilson
I have been studying Plath's poetry for a graduate class and find that she has more than once referred to her right foot being heavy (like a paperweight in "Lady Lazarus") and again a reference is made to her foot being in her father's shoe for thirty years. She seems to be conscious of her foot--a metaphor? I am having a hard time finding a pattern for that... I know her father had a problem with diabetes and it did affect his foot. Did she have some problem with her foot/feet at all? Any clues to why she would invite an image of her as someone who might limp?--or is that metaphor? She mentions that her first attempt at suicide was at age ten--then calls it an "accident"; ("Lady Lazarus") Does anyone now the circumstances around that suicide/accident when she was ten? I know her daddy died when she was 8. There doesn't seem to be mention of it in other biographies. I find these two unanswered questions repeated enough in her poetry to wonder if there was something really in her history to bring them up, or if she was using them as metaphor...they have me very curious now! Kathryn Struck
I am not sure if this will get answered at this forum, but I am looking for Sylvia Plath's interview of Marrianne Moore in Mademoiselle Magazine. I am writing a paper on several modern poets and their views about poetry needing to be "difficult"--as a craft, when reading it, etc. I am not writing about Sylvia Plath directly, but have written a bit about Marrianne Moore and would love to find this interview to see what Moore said to Plath. I think this would be a wonderful and interesting addition to my paper (if there is anything in the interview I can use), and would love so much if someone could help me find this article online. I am a mother and can mainly work on my paper on weekends---and my university library is not open weekends in the summer. Therefore , I am not being lazy about research, I just have limited resources, and would appreciate any help. I have typed several things into Google to no avail. You are welcome to e-mail me if you have any information. Thanks. Stirringleaf
I enjoy reading the information and analysis at the Sylvia Plath Forum. If you would like to read what I had to say on some of the recent books including Diane Middleton's Her Husband, Jillian Becker's Giving Up: The Last Days of Sylvia Plath, as well as the Film Sylvia go to my website. The Sylvia article is in the Books section, entitled Sylvia Lives. You are welcome to email comments. Catherine MacLennan
Stephanie and Kenneth: I believe Letters from Sylvia was published in the Smith Alumnae Quarterly. They are available for reading at the Mortimer Rare Book Room in the Neilsen Library, Smith College. Gordon Lameyer tried very hard to get a book published of his memories with Sylvia Plath; however, may he rest in peace, the manuscript was apparently awful. There are letters referring to Lameyer's manuscript in the early 1970s sent between, I think, Olwyn Hughes, Fran McCullough and Aurelia Plath, that are also held in the Mortimer Rare Book Room. The Lilly Library at Indiana University has a box of his manuscript - some really incredible photographs that he took throughout his relationship with Plath. Peter K Steinberg
Stephanie, Letters from Sylvia has to be Inter-Library-Loaned....I no longer have it, but found it listed in a footnote in one of the bios; Letters from Sylvia, Gordon Lameyer, whatever-the-magazine was...does anyone out there know offhand? It was a college journal, if I recall aright...This was 30 years ago, or maybe 35...at the end of the letter-excerpts it said This is from Lameyer's forthcoming book, which never appeared; much like Lear in Boston, from the girl who took Lowell's poetry class with Plath and Sexton; that book made it as far as magazine-pages, but died before becoming a book. When you research Sylvia, as anything else, you find as much is out there unpublished, as is...or scattered...I once found a history of Smith college that included two letters of Sylvia's--unmemorable ones, but there they were... Kenneth Jones
This message is about "The highest logo" in SP's Journals. The phrase pops up in the first journal, and was a nightmare of many translators, including my wife and me. We have recently translated the Journals into Polish, they were published in June 2004. So we wrote about it to the source, that is to Karen Kukil. She was very kind, and looked it up in the manuscript, and the new reading is "the highest loop", which makes the entry easy to understand. Pawel
Elaine Connell
In keeping with the tradition of posting on new books, I would like to announce to the Sylvia Plath Forum that Chelsea House Publishers has recently released a biography of Sylvia Plath written by me. It is available on Amazon.com, the ISBN number is 0-7910-7843-4. The book is part of their new Great Writers series, and my Plath book features a foreword by the eminent Linda Wagner-Martin. The biography is short, only about 131 pages of actual text. However, between the text and a comprehensive notes section, there is enough new information to make this book worth your while. At such a short number of pages, this biography of Sylvia Plath has no B.S. in it; personal opinions on the nature of Plath's and Hughes' character is kept to a bare minimum, leaving it to be a precise and concise biography. Peter K Steinberg
Thanks for that lovely welcome Elaine and for your thoughts on my stance. I'm relieved to hear someone who agrees with me as it's still a risky position to vindicate TH yet I feel it's time it happened and now I've started I probably won't be able to shut up! I've always felt that Plath never intended to succeed at the suicide but we could speculate about that forever it doesn't change the fact that in doing so she left Hughes holding a very big baby that he had to nurse all his life. I think he did it with amazing integrity despite the occasional lapse...personally I also think the missing volumes are all in that sealed trunk at Emory! Birthday Letters was a true and I felt intensely moving account by a man capable of giving voice to the very deep and fundamental emotions of the human spirit and to expose them finally as he did knowing he was going to die seems a very acceptable thing to do, everyone deserves that chance in life. There were many times when he could have done battle but chose not to and much of that probably rests with the idea that actually what really went on was intensely personal and special and for public consumption only when he was ready to set the record straight. Howls and Whispers (Hughes final collection part of, but published separately from, Birthday Letters in a very limited edition) contains a poem entitled "The Offers", recently published in Ted Hughes Collected Poems.It is a long and remarkable poem where Hughes recounts three sightings he had of Plath two months after her death, after the third sighting she says 'This is the last.This one.This time Don't fail me'.It is a gut-wrenching poem that just leaves you wondering how on earth he kept all that so close to his heart for so long.It is impossible not to be moved by it and I feel ultimately to arrive at a more balanced understanding of the very big picture that is Plath and Hughes. Bumblebee
Welcome to the forum, Bumblebee. Hope you carry on contributing. Much as I admire Plath's work and feel pity for what happened to her in her marriage I feel very similar to you about Plath and Hughes. I don't think that she was a saint or that he was the Devil Incarnate. I've always believed he was unfairly villified by some people, especially the "Red Guard" type feminists who attacked him in Australia or who kept on defacing Plath's grave by chiselling out his surname. I believe that when I wrote my book eleven to twelve years ago I may well have been one of the first (perhaps the only?) feminists who didn't take this hard line on Hughes. I felt vindicated in my opinions when Birthday Letters came out in 1998 and demonstrated the depth of his love for Sylvia and guilt about her death. And like you I find both of their bodies of work equally interesting. Elaine Connell
Kenneth, where would one find Letters From Sylvia? Stephanie Boisvert
I have been following this forum as a lurker for ages and always, just as I'm about to post someone else says the same thing....so here goes. I read the Diane Middlebrook book when it first came out and recently heard her speak at the Hay Festival for the UK launch. I still feel that she is one of the few Plath/Hughes writers to attain a modicum of impartiality and to advance a new and refreshing take on a subject that you wonder just how much more can be written about it. Her focus was clearly TH and the marriage and I think she does him justice which in many ways redresses the balance of so much that has been written that has undeservedly villified him. I have read just about all there is to read on this (though I'm sure someone will tell me there's something I haven't!)and I still don't feel the need to take sides, I can have pro-Sylvia weeks and pro-Ted weeks but basically both their lives, and more importantly their writing, fascinate me equally. There at last...I've posted a message Bumblebee
Kenneth Jones
Gina. Welcome to the forum, I'm sure there are many Brits here. If I'm not wrong I think the lady who runs this site is also a Brit. I'm not entirely sure how many Londoners there are who are Plath fans (I once came across one but have not received a reply to her email after I dug her out), I'm sure there are many but I haven't come across them on here. The Bell Jar of course, I once planned to write something on The Bell Jar as autobiography. Indeed, many many of the events described in there are also found recorded in Plath's journals or depicted in some form in the novel from her journals. The poem you refer to is most surely the most famous Plath poem? (Can anyone think of another more famous one)? It's called "Daddy" and it's also, I'm pretty sure the most discussed Plath poem. I doubt it has lost its impact in all these years despite being torn to shreds by the psycho-analysers and critics. Rehan Qayoom
Gina - I am currently reading The Bell Jar. It is very well written, and the sense of pace and the way Plath describes the interaction between the characters such as between herself and Buddy Williard is very convincing and effective. I am a writer myself, and over time I have learned to recognise good writing. In any novel written in first person narrative, it is essential to get the reader to sympathise with the protagonist, else they will throw the book away after reading a few chapters. The poem you mention is called "Daddy". Richard Carrington
Glad to have discovered this site where ideas about Sylvia and her poetry can be exchanged. With some trepidation I have put my song setting of "Blackberrying" on my website. It is some years since it was first performed "live" in public but you can hear it by going to the section 'My compositions/My Other Songs'. I am now looking for a bright soprano who can record a new vocal track to add to the piano music. Roy Buckle
Fady, Plath makes a mention of the Bronte sisters in a letter to her mother (Letters Home, Faber and Faber). This was probably during a trip to Heathcliff shortly after her marriage to Ted Hughes. She describes charming little watercolours made by the sisters and in general her tone is admiring of the work produced by the Brontes. Hope this helps. Aurogeeta Das
I largely agree with both Jack Fosom's and H. McCormack's remarks regarding Her Husband. Given that I had expected a full biography of Ted Hughes, I was disappointed by what Diane Middlebrook gave us. She had already demonstrated her considerable talents in her biography of Ann Sexton, but in her Plath/Hughes book she seems so interested in defending her thesis (that artistically the marriage between Hughes and Plath was the best thing to happen to both of them) that she loses her biographer's objectivity. As Mr. McCormack states in his post, Plath is raked pretty hard. She is described as a clinical psychotic who suffered from violent mood swings and extreme bouts of rage. Fair enough, although one is left to wonder when, and if, she was capable of exercising any degree of free will at all. Also, while we have other accounts of her "mad" behavior, these are balanced by memoirs from people who found her quite capable and sane. Hughes, on the other hand, is given a free ride. Rather than place him in the psychologist's couch as she does Plath, Middlebrook spends considerable time in describing Hughes' natal chart and discussing his many astrological and occult beliefs. The reader is led to believe that all of his problems came from outside events for which he was barely responsible, and that his reactions can only be understook in terms of his arcane beliefs. It seems--according to Middlebrook--it is perfectly normal to make major decisions based on the alignment of the stars; and if only Plath was less sentimental and more in tune with his special needs, their marriage would have lasted. Presumably they would have gone on to write great poetry forever. Somehow, I don't believe it. But since we'll never know what would have happened had Plath never met Hughes in 1956, it's hard to say whether Middlebrook's thesis is correct of incorrect. What we can say for sure is that they both paid dearly for having met. Paul Snyder
I'm a new contributor, from England. Are there any more Brits out there? I've just finished The Bell Jar. Anyone have any comments on this excellent novel? I think it has resonances of Catcher in the Rye. Plath is a very skillful writer. I studied some of her poems at college, such as "The Arrival of the Beebox", "Lady Lazurus" and one about her father, where she compares him to a Nazi and herself to a Jew. It's starts something like "Black shoe, in which I have lived like a foot", etc. I'm sure you know the one. I also studied a bit of Ted's stuff, but can't remember his poetry at all. I've never forgot Plath's poetry, even though it was 20 years ago. I didn't even like poetry at the time, but she made such an impression on me. I can see from this forum that Plath still has a very large following me, and that pleases me a great deal. Gina Collings
Hello Rehan. It is interesting to find someone who is also fascinated by Otto Plath's book, Bumblebees And Their Ways. He was an intriguing, educated and hard working man, who will unfortunately, always be remembered as one of the two men who inspired Sylvia Plath to write her caustic poem "Daddy", one of my favorites. I am certain he wasn't an ogre, just misunderstood. He certainly did suffer in his life, there is no quesion about that, and as suffering introduces us to our true selves, I am sure he was quite an interesting and unique character. The book you are looking for is quite expensive, if you go to addall.com you will find three that are available, all first editions I believe, written in 1934, New York: The Macmillan Company. Two are listed as $225 and one signed copy is listed as $999.95 so as you can see, this may be an expensive endeavor. This was a book he researched quite extensively and is considered one of many good early books on the subject. I also would love to get a copy and have done my share of poking around here in Portland, but alas I was not able to afford the one copy I was lucky enough to examine just a few years ago. It would be nice if perhaps one day someone could arrange a modest reprinting of it, it is quite a good book on a very quaint, satisfying and narrow topic. Good luck to you in finding a copy. Therresa Kennedy
Middlebrook's Her Husband is certainly an erudite work and she certainly knows about poetry: However, her understanding of psychology is another question.She disposes us to see Plath as mad Her 'all-encompassing sense of worthlessness and hopelessness and meaningless'...is termed an illness and we are told 'it ran in the family on both sides'. This way she rubbishes all Plath's own insights and understanding of her mother's relationship which had caused her breakdown. But she applies different criteria to Hughes. His anti-social,body-smelling presence are not treated as autistic traits: His need to perceive himself as a 'Chosen One', hearing voices and seeing visions, are part of his noble mission. His treating women as geographical entities and his sexual rampage in the '70s whilst keeping his second wife in Devon would be diagnosed by some psychiatrists as acting-out his hostility to women and a massive inability to assume responsibility or blame ; for Middlemarch he's admirably loyal to the Muse! I find it pitiful that clever women are seduced by the -Art justifies the Means-of the male poet. Sylvia Plath, the woman poet, produced her masterpiece at the kitchen table with no need of bedding, dining or wining her Muses at 5 star hotels. I wish to thank Elaine Connell for this unique and informative Forum. H. McCormack
Roberto - Ironically, I just pulled out my copy of Ariel the other night and this was one of the poems that caught my attention. I do think "The Arrival of the Bee Box", is a metaphor for Plath's inner and outer turmoil... in broad, general terms. I feel that she is very explicit in this poem about what, exactly, that turmoil is, and I find it very telling. She uses three separate images of oppression and domination, and expresses the process of initial intent to overcome or fit in, struggle against and finally resignation to the inescapable "locked box" -- metaphoric of her situation as a woman in a largely male-dominated profession and/or society? Metaphoric of her situation as an overwhelmed wife and mother who had been deserted by her husband? Metaphoric of her struggle as an artist to justify her "calling" in a world that had merited her little success? In her resignation though, she hints at madness, referring to "maniacs" and making allusions to a mental asylum -- in giving in to the pressures of society, she is also giving up her sanity. I'm also very intrigued by the subtle way she draws parallels to mythology - don't the first three lines "The box is locked, it is dangerous/I have to live with it overnight/And I canít keep away from it" call to mind the story of Pandora, her infamous locked box and her inability to stop herself from opening it? She knows that unleashing her inner demons is dangerous, but she can't help herself. She knows she won't be able to control whatever is unleashed, and she ultimately knows it will hurt her very badly, but she still tries to talk herself into thinking that she might be spared... temporarily. She knows that by venting all of her repressed emotions and unexpressed anger -- by giving voice to her previously unintelligible feelings -- she will be vulnerable and exposed to danger. I don't know that Sylvia had, at this point, resigned herself to death, but I'm pretty sure she was at least aware she was losing her grip on her sanity as she had before. Anyone else? Jennifer K.C.
If I may horseshoe in my two (zinc-plated) coppers here, I was interested to read Therresa Kennedy's original post, which seemed to me to be fair polemics, and certainly within the normal limits of a classroom discussion. Any discussion of a poet and the poetry will always lead to the question of "how can we separate the dancer from the dance..." And half the academic game with Plath, is linking her tropes with the figure that sparked it. She paid Plath the compliment of taking her as real, and not merely a collage of words. Poetry after all happens in the real world. Plath was, remember, a confessional poet; one of its defining figures; first Lowell, then Plath, then Sexton. Plath's innovations had precisely to do with speaking the previously unvoiced-- the taboo, the confessional, even, at times, the demonic; her first reputation was as a wild woman speaking the unspeakable, a modern Cassandra. And a "wronged woman" was exactly how Plath saw herself in the last months; unto the death; a fatal role for her, but one she played to the hilt. Her last month was a crescendo of shadows, signs, and portents, and herself as oracle; as one of the commentators said, her voice was her own, but the pain in "Ariel" was the world's. Therein lies its value. That was her achievement, and, to my mind, the entire point about Plath--self as symbol, symbol as self, and the world, in all its sinuous turnings, its multiplication of masks. Given that, it is a little odd to see firescreens set up--but one understands why, too; manners are the world, and civilized discussion needs its limits, and de gustibus, etc. If the purpose is to stimulate discussion, she succeeded. --excepting, of course, for her complete collapse of taste in rating any of Hughes' poems above Plath's; there are, after all, limits... Re New Haven; As to the meaning of "Arrival of the Bee Box," it is Prospero stuff--the calling of spirits from the vasty deep, and a word of caution--the "volatile material" Alvarez spoke of. Kenneth Jones
Does anyone know whether Otto Plath's book on bumblebees is still available from anywhere or whether it has been reprinted? Also, is there a textual difference between the British edition of Plath's unexpurgated journals and The Unabridged Journals of Sylvia Plath - American Edition? Rehan Qayoom
I found more information on Warren Plath today during a casual perusal of the Net. The following was printed in a review written by Plath of the book Early Years in Machine Translation: "Warren J. Plath is a research staff member, emeritus, at the IBM T.J. Watson Research Center, where he formerly served as manager of the Theoretical and Computational Linguistics Group. As a graduate student and later faculty member at Harvard in the late 1950s and early 1960s he managed the transition from applied work on Russian-English MT using special purpose machines to a broad program of research emphasizing linguistic theory, English grammar, and formal parsing systems implemented on general-purpose computers. His subsequent project and individual research included work on natural language question-answering, machine-aided translation, semantic grammars for spoken-language interfaces, and information extraction from news articles on the Web." At the date of publication, Warren Plath was employed by IBM's Mathematical Sciences Department in Yorktown Heights, New York. Jennifer K.C.
Fady, there is in an old Christian Science Monitor (1958?)an article by Plath, called "A Walk to Withens;" where she had her very own Heathcliff lead her to the Brontes old house on the moors....and they got lost....(paging Dr. Freud!)...so, yes, you can certainly see Ted & Sylvia as Heathcliff and Cathy, writ large; she did....Has that article been collected anywhere, yet? Kenneth Jones
As far as Plath's fiction goes, I agree with Ted Hughes that her poetry is, finally, far more compelling, and her most uniquely revelatory medium. But at the same time, her verse had opportunities to develop that her prose never did. The genius of Ariel...and the poems written shorlty before it...would have eventually crossed over into a novelistic form; but any such transferral was cut short by her untimely death. No doubt some may disagree with this...and with good reason, as there are so many wonderful moments in Plath's short stories and "The Bell Jar; so much real brilliance and originality to suggest that she had already, in fact, acheived a series of masterpieces in the medium of prose. But again, to me, her poetry has a kind of greatness that I think is perhaps missing from her other work. Oddly, I find myself far more curious about the novel(s) she eventually would have penned, had she survived herself, than the unwritten poetry that was lost with her death. It's just that her last work (verse) is so extraordinary that I can't imagine it possibly getting, or being, any better. One of her best stories is certainly Sweetie Pie And The Gutter Men. What a brilliant study of wish fulfillment, and how somehow cathartically malevolent its rendering. Her last story, Snow Blitz....obviously geared for some kind of essentially mindless women's magazine.... is, in it's own way, just as alarming a controlled facade as any of Letters Home. Though there is a seemingly inevitable undertone of darkness in it, Plath reverts continually to a kind of aggressive chattiness; an attempt at normalcy we can see is not working; and closes with the unforgettable lines: "My children will grow up, resolute, independent, and tough, fighting through queues for candles for me in my aguey old age. While I brew waterless tea... that at least the future should bring...on a gas ring in the corner. If the gas, too, is not kaput." Lisa A. Flowers
Tanya, It is my understanding that Warren Joseph Plath graduated with a PhD from Harvard University in 1964, and has published several journals and written reviews on computational linguistics. I believe he lives in the States, and has at least two daughters. My information could be flawed, though, as there is very little information about him to be found. Jennifer K.C.
I just want to say couple of things in response to Joan Phillips's message dated March 29, 2004. She calls Sylvia's decision to kill herself selfish and thinks that if Sylvia only had hope she would have survived and seen her children grown up. You know, Joan, you mention in your message that you have been "through this much and more" but if you claim to know what depression is, how can you blaim somebody for committing suicide-the pure outcome of depression? She was obviously too sick and in too much pain to think straight. See, there is a difference between "toying with the concept of death" and actually considering death as an escape from the enormous pain that you're feeling when you're depressed. A depressed person who is not on medication is like a walking time bomb-you never know when it's gonna be your last day. I simply think that you just cant judge people like SP because you really don't know how much pain she was in and what was going through her head. And as far as movie goes... I really didnt like the way they made it look like Sylvia was suffering mostly because of her husband and the whole mistress ordeal. I think they really should have gotten into her personal drama, her inner controversies-that, I beleive, was really what made her suffer so much and eventally led to her death. She was obviously one of thos people who are sick from the beginning, who are born depressed. Her husband only added to the problem. Larisa
I hope members of this forum won't be annoyed at me for talking about some poetry here.. I am interested in hearing what you think "The Arrival of the Bee Box" is all about. Could it be about her in and out feelings of suicide? And what is "the other" about? Roberto
Anna
In response to Melissa's fine and insightful post about Plath's perfectionism...if you think about it, perfection is really the end...and goal...of all ambition. For this reason it may aspire to a heavenly "finished" state; and not an earthly "striving towards" one. As Sylvia Plath has said of it, "perfection is terrible; it cannot have children"........and, in my interpretation, this is what she meant by that. Obviously her last poems are indeed consumed with the idea of wholeness Melissa speaks of...."Getting There" "Fever 103 Degrees" and, to a more obscure and placidly darker extent, the magnificent "The Courage Of Shutting Up" all speak to it. I would venture that when the perceived ideal of Plath's life and marriage collapsed, it did not, in fact, truly disintegrate in her mind, but flew into a surrogate home where it might find a transformed, continuing life. That new home, of course, was Ariel. Her perfectionism, in other words, was simply transplanted into another context; and this time it was a context that "took" to the figurative body it had been moved into, and flourished. Unlike her daily life, Ariel was a world where Plath's genius and her demons might enter into a viable working relationship... a world not limited by the necessity of human give and take, and the inevitability of personality conflicts. Lisa A. Flowers
I am interested in information about Sylvia's brother, Warren. I have read most of the biographical works about Sylvia Plath, but none do more than reference him in passing. Tanya
Hello everyone. It is my first visit to this site. I would like to say that Sylvia Plath writings are powerful. I find myself reading her poems everyday. My question is does anyone know if Sylvia enjoyed the Brontes sisters? I know that they have few things in common, but I was just wondering. Thanks in advance. Fady Mansour
I know I'm getting fairly late to the party, but after reading the recent comments regarding proper Forum decorum, I feel compelled to jump in, particularly since Peter was brave enough to offer the first male perspective. The Forum doesn't offer that many opportunities to make so many people angry. Like Peter I take Kim's side in the matter. To accuse her of wanting to impose some kind of censorship because of her original 5/4 post is a wild overreaction. She was simply voicing her negative reaction to an earlier post by Theressa Kennedy. To accuse Kim of being elitist in her taste for doing so is a cheap shot. I think we can all agree on the desirability of an open and free Forum. However, in reading Theressa's earlier post, I too found it off-topic, and maybe even tiresome, annoying, and untenable, to say nothing of it being insulting. After all, its one thing to sit around a table with your girlfriends dissing men because of your own personal experiences, but proclaiming your view on a forum dedicated to a specific topic (in this case, the life and work of Sylvia Plath) is something else. Of course, as has been mentioned, readers of the Forum can skip over postings they don't like. This was, in fact, the course I chose to take. However, contributors shouldn't be cowered into silence when they voice a negative reaction to a post. If that happens, the Forum will slide into irrelevance, where everyone praises everyone else and anyone can say whatever they want about anything at all. Paul Snyder
Lisa thanks for posting the beautiful poem by David Wevill, and for your commentary on it. In reply to your and Jenniferís earlier posts, I agree that perceiving and interpreting events and people through oneís own subjectivity is natural; we all do it. It is not inappropriate, Lisa, for you to relate that it is your own experience with suffering that made reading Ariel relevant and personal to you. Iím sure almost everyone ìout thereî would empathize and understand that. But my argument is that there are some posts that purport to be about the subject at hand ñwhatever that may be at the moment ñ but are really more about the person posting the message. And this is, as far as I understand it, not meant to be a forum wherein we subject each other in numerous, lengthy posts to our personal lives and our personal demons. There are other forums on the internet in which to do so. Elaine has created a remarkable website for people interested in Plath and Hughes and we all owe her a debt of gratitude. She is also a person committed to free speech and fairness, and I am sure there are many times she has included posts that she does not necessarily agree with or support. It is up to us, the participants in this forum, to be relevant, informative, engaging and interesting. There is a way to write from the heart and the mind that is deeply personal and informed by experience and yet relevant to other people. Many individuals have been drawn to Plathís work because of her ability to write in this way. Also, when someone posts that they are more than willing to stir up a little controversy and that it gives them pleasure to do so, they shouldnít be surprised if someone else eventually gets fed up and grabs the spoon! I do think there is room on the forum for posts that are not scholarly or analytical. I myself have posted many non-scholarly bits of information over the years. And yes, there is room for humor and disagreement. Trust me, I am not a dessicated, abstemious, ill humored, 'blue stocking' with no life experience and no other interests:) Thank you, Peter for your fine suggestion of a topic (and for your friendship). I canít comment now, as I am less knowledgeable about Plathís prose, but now I have a ëgood excuseí to go back to the short stories. There was also a post a while back from Karen U about Plathís interest in the occult. There is a book by Timothy Materer titled Modernist Alchemy and the Occult which includes chapters on Plath and on Hughes, as well as Yeats, Merrill, H.D., etc.. I highly recommend it. There is also an article by Mary Kurtzman about Plathís use of tarot card imagery in Ariel and her possible use of the tarot while writing the Bell Jar. I have a copy somewhere and can send it to you if you are interested. Although not specifically about Plath I also recommend Ann Skeaís (section on Poetry and Magic) which includes Annís very interesting and extensive analysis on her theory that Ted Hughes used the Tarot and the Cabbala as a basis for Birthday Letters. Kim
As far as David Wevill's poetry goes...I have only just been introduced to the pieces in Departures Therresa mentions in her post; it had never occurred to me, for some reason, to look into Wevill's body of work until recently; but, based on the small handful of his poems I've seen, I would say his collection is well worth the purchase. If I may, then, I'd like to quote (for anybody who may be similarily unfamiliar with it, the poem "Assia", and comment on it a bit. Assia If I am to stay where you put me What a profound, tragically beautiful commentary on time, endurance, and giving up this piece is. The "shop about to close" bit seems, to me, to refer to David Wevill's own inevitable death from old age; and his regret at the natural amnesia that time produces. At 31, I know what has to be only a little bit about this phenomenon; but the position the speaker in this poem stands in seems scarcely more comprehensible to him than it is to me. Of course we know, now, that it was really David, and not Assia, who ultimately escaped that "dark generation" to live this long. Wevill's poems about Assia, I think, are quite a bit more intimate than Ted's, and seem to have a far more sophisticated...and painful...concept of Assia as an individual. Unlike Hughes, Wevill is not focusing on the "epic fate" of Assia; nor seeking, in any way, to turn her death into a myth; but quietly, and with dignity, mourning her private suffering...visiting, if you will, the grave of a person rather than the shrine of a destructive legend. I know I've expressed contempt in the past for the way Assia Wevill conducted herself in the wake of Sylvia Plath's suicide; and I can neither excuse nor rationalize her taking the life of her small daughter. I believe her actions probably were rooted, essentially, in a kind of pathological, hysterical narcissism; but maybe I am wrong about that. I have to say frankly that these few poems David Wevill has written about Assia have done far more to redeem and, as Therresa said, soften her image in my eyes than any of Hughes's work ever did. The tragedy of Assia, I think, is not by any means that she she was "evil," but that she lived her years on earth without ever coming to any epiphany about (again) time, grace, and her own limitations. Woould she have accepted the inevitability of the same as the natural process that it is, and embraced the humility that karma and age bring as a gateway to a larger, more reciprocal universe, rather than interpreting it as a process of disintegration, then perhaps the qualities David Wevill so loved in her would eventually have come into full flower. Instead, she became the closing night blossom of Sylvia Plath's last poem. Lisa A. Flowers
There is a major problem with skipping over postings that one might find offensive. That problem is that it generally takes a full read through to realize the posting is crap. How about a nice, lengthy, year-long discussion on Sylvia Plath's progression in short fiction to the novel? I would suggest starting with her brilliant "Sunday at the Mintons" and discussing story by story her construction of character, dialogue, setting, and her eventual, successful move to a more colloquial language. Peter K Steinberg
Jennifer, you make ...as always...some really interesting and valid observations about people's "emotional" response to Plath's poetry...as a lot of the "less gossip, more poetry" arguments seem, as you insinuate, to almost be invalidating, and dismissing as irrelevant, any kind of reaction to Plath and her story that isn't solely scholarly and analytical. We do indeed have to remember that it was these very kinds of psychological extremes... and personal vendettas...against Assia, against Aurelia, against her father...that produced Plath's greatest art in the first place. Whether they were "rational" or not is certainly beside the point. As far as Therresa's post goes, it was Sylvia's devastation in the throes and wake of her own husband's infidelity that kicked the door to Ariel open. So what could be more of a testament to the healing power of Plath's work than the empathetic revelations of someone who has suffered what she suffered? To put it more succinctly, I think most people on this forum were probably first brought into an appreciation of Sylvia Plath because they saw something in her work that they could relate to. Her last and greatest poetry is indeed and truly the "language of crisis"; hence, by definition, to be brought fully into an appreciation of it, one would have to have something in their own private odessey to compare it to. A few years ago, for example, at the end of a terrible relationship, it was Ariel that validated my own suffering and kept me sane; I turned to the book as to a bible, and my story...especially on this forum...is surely not unique. So...is it "inappropriate" for me to say that? Does my saying that necessarily negate my ability to discuss and appreciate Plath's work in an objectively analytical context? As Kim said (quite correctly) about Assia Wevill awhile back: "a little more open minded compassion and empathy for the lives of the people we are discussing, and a little less black and white judgment, will help to keep this forum relevant and enlightening for all who visit here." Lisa A. Flowers
Yes, Jennifer, I think you have some salient points there, regarding why we delve into the biographies of these two writers. I wonder, though, if we dig into the biographies of other writers that we admire to the same extent? In his book The Courage to Teach Parker J. Palmer talks about the two core elements (identity and integrity) that make for good teaching. I think that if we substitute "writing" for "teaching" his perspectives still hold true: "By identity I mean an evolving nexus where all the forces that constitute my life converge in the mystery of self: my genetic makeup, the nature of the man and woman who gave me life, the culture in which I was raised, people who have sustained me and people who have done me harm, the good and ill I have done to others and myself, the experience of love and suffering---and much more. In the midst of that complex field identity is a moving intersection of the inner and outer forces that make me who I am, converging in the irreducible mystery of being human...By integrity I mean whatever wholeness I am able to find within that nexus as its vectors form and re-form that pattern of my life. Integrity requires that I discern what is integral to my selfhood, what fits and what does not---and that I choose life-giving ways of relating to the forces that converge within me: Do I welcome them or fear them, embrace them or reject them, move with them or against them? By choosing integrity I become more whole, but wholeness does not mean perfection. It means becoming more real by acknowledging the whole of who I am." I find so much of what he says in defining these two topics to be relevant to the issue of SP, that I don't even know where to begin. TH has suggested that pretty much everything but Ariel was her "false self." I wonder the same thing...the Letters Home, the Journals, the voice of Colossus, the voice of Ariel---are these personas artificial, or are they merely different manifestations of the "moving intersection?" I also wonder if she was in so much psychic pain because she could not find integrity as Parker Palmer defines it; could not find "wholeness" or "life-giving ways" of relating to the many parts of her that were her---especially the less appealing forces that resided within her mind. Perhaps Ariel was her "moment" of integrity; she managed embrace it all, became whole, and created a work of extraordinary power, but she could not maintain it. She failed to realize that wholeness is not perfection, and she was an uberperfectionist. If I may be so bold as to make the suggestion: did her inability to reach this integrity lead to the recurring depressions that eventually killed her? Melissa
Lisa, thank you so much for your kind comments about the contributions I have made with regard to my postings of late. And thank you also for being one of several people who visit this site that I can personally count on to make thoughtful and intelligent remarks about a whole multitude of different topics which relate to SP and TH, two of the most intriguing people I have ever studied. It is noteworthy that you attmept to communicate respectfully and not to take sides, something I will attmept to emulate myself in future, as it really is behavior indictative of a true ladylike quality that is commendable on your part. I would like to think that one's personal experiences can be shared with others mature enough, courageous enough to accept them without fear, on a forum that is dedicated to the study and shared analysis of two adult persons, who in their adult lives attempted to contend with their various adult struggles in an adult manner. I was wondering having read David Wevill's book of collected poems, entitled Departures if any one has any comments on some of the poems that dealt with Assia Wevill, his poems of her? Four I believe, are "Apples and Apples", "Assia", "Memorial 1 and Memorial 2". These poems are really wonderfully sentimental, and while not as cleverly crafted as much of Hughes's work are precious in their own right and provide an interesting perspective on Assia that is unavailable anywhere else. In my email correspondences with some other visitors to this forum I think we have come to a kind of informal agreement that with his poems of her, our view of Assia has perhaps been altered, maybe softened just a touch. In any event, this book is a really good read and presents a very different approach to Assia that is quite compelling to read and assimilate. I would encourage those who haven't read it to do so. Now if I can only locate a copy of Her Husband, because until I read it I guess I am not qualified to speculate on anything that smacks of even average intelligence. Cheers and the best to you all! Therresa Kennedy
I find it interesting that, from a non-emotional point of view, all of these posts urging "less gossip, more poetry" lend themselves directly to the other major topic of the moment: artistic license (or slant-truth) vs. what "really" happened. I would propose that hashing through the details of Plath's and Hughes's personal lives contribute greatly to their poetry -- not because it provides titillating gossip for the water-cooler or what have you, but because somewhere in the midst of all these illusions, allusions and reflections there is the elusive truth -- and don't we all, as devoted partakers of their art, crave to understand more completely what it is we're partaking of? How can one effectively separate the artist's pain, joy, sorrow, triumph, failure... in essence life from her art? Isn't it these exact things which, upon discovery, give art its ability to speak to us, to engrain itself into our souls? Would Plath's poetry be less captivating if her personal pain and agony of soul were unknown to us? I argue that it would. Our encounters with her art are vastly altered because we know the anguish which created them, compared with how they might (or might not) resonate within us should we be spared such details. Isn't there hidden meaning, shrouded nuances, veiled sorrows lurking in those dark corners - and don't we all hope somehow that knowing more about her life will throw a little more light in those places? Not so we can pick the bird clean until the poem is nothing more than a skeleton, but so we can experience it more deeply? I believe the best of every person in this forum, even though I'm a newcomer myself. I don't believe that anyone here has exploitative intentions, or that anyone has come here to "finger through [Sylvia Plath's] underwear", to coin a phrase from her daughter. I fail to see anything demeaning, vulgar or offensive in these posts - but then, I must have missed the reference to anatomical parts that was referred to earlier. ;) Alongside the scholarly, carefully guided, intellectual response to Plath's art there is also the personal resonance, how we experience the art -- the emotional response, if you will -- and that is a little more messy, a little less defined a process to work through... but just as important! I would hope that we would all give each other the benefit of the doubt as we work through our "processes", and a little patience. Jennifer K.C.
As far as the present debate over "proper" and/or fitting forum content goes, I can honestly appreciate...in theory, anyway... both sides. I know that this forum has a legitimate reputation for quality to uphold; and I can understand how those who see it as an important archival and literary venue (which, of course, it is) might perceive any "transgressions" upon that concept as an "intellectual insult" of sorts....but come on, people, lighten up! I'm obviously a new contributor here, and don't wish to make enemies with anyone...particularly Kim, whose wonderful posts I always enjoy reading. But with all due respect, regardless of what one may feel is "suitable," making barbed comments of the "women wounded by infidelity" variety is in poor etiquette, not to mention cruel in a schoolyardish sort of way. I agree with Trish wholeheartedly that anyone who has a personal problem with what someone says has the option of skipping that person's post. Disagreeing with what someone says and debating it in a tactful fashion is one thing; outright mockery is quite another. Lisa A. Flowers
Melissa, your comments were right on, in my opinion -- I am going to need to think on them a bit more before I can comment further on the bulk of what you said. One part of your post that especially caught my attention, though, was in regard to Sylvia's letters to her mother. Even there (and probably "especially" there), I think she was portraying a persona - that of "faithful, doting daughter"... which, contrasted by her rantings about her mother in her journals we are able to see was just another 'reflection' of the real Sylvia Plath. Even her journals, it has been argued, were used as an "exercise" in writing -- in her later journals especially, she writes about the people in her life as if she is trying to tuck away characterizations for future novels. It leads one to wonder how much is truth and how much is "slanted" to make for a good read, or a good plot-line. Anyway, these ideas are all fairly rough; I will have to think more about all of this before I can flesh out exactly what I'm trying to say. Jennifer K.C.
It is becoming more and more obvious that this Forum is taking a turn for the lowest common denominator. Yes, we are all entitled to our own opinions and yes, we are all entitled to wax on and on, sometimes ad nauseam, about subjects we have scant knowledge of--in point, Ms. Kennedy's cautioning readers of Diane Middlebrook's Her Husband not to take any quotes regarding the sex lives of those involved "too literally" even though, by her own admission, Ms. Kennedy has yet to read the book! (Though she does mention that it's definitely on her "to do" list.) And one should not assume that because a posting is published on the Forum that is has the seal of approval from Elaine Connell. I enjoyed the Forum much more when there was less sniping and more discussion of her poetry and I cannot be the only one to find the hijacking of this medium by a few posters to be, as Kim put it so eloquently, annoying, tedious, and off-topic. PS if anyone finds this post irritating they should simply skip over it! Claudette Coulter
There should be a certain amount of respect between Forum contributors; of course on a public forum such as this, there will be differences which spark debate and controversy. This forum is not about gossip, join a Yahoo club and talk about Brad Pitt's arse if you want to gossip; the Sylvia Plath Forum is an intellictual meeting ground; bring not your swords, only your pens. I support Kim of Detroit's three postings from May 04, May 07, and May 10, 2004. I support them because I've read and admired her postings from her start at the Forum in October 1999. Elaine Connell, like Kim a champion and victor of my Plathian heart, has perhaps the hardest job of any of us: deciding what makes it on this good web site. Because of the Forum's international success, it has been acknowledged on both sides of the Atlantic, and quite reasonably, elsewhere in the world, Elaine has to filter through a load of postings and decide what makes it. Imagine if all the readers of the Forum posted, a good portion of the Earth would be represented. Many more words would need to be considered, many more opinions heard. You can search the BBC archives for information about Elaine, Sylvia Plath, and the Forum. This web site is linked to more Plath related web sites than any other. It is well respected, and things like gossip and personal heartache don't belong here. It can be depressing enough, reading about Sylvia Plath. There's no need to add to the stereotype! Some Forum contributors, over the years, have dropped off the face of the earth. O for Stewart! It would be a tragic loss to my life if good, intelligent people like Kim from Detroit were to lose interest and stop contributing to the Sylvia Plath Forum. Email is a good thing, sometimes. May I suggest that personal attacks take place privately, rather than on a public forum? As you are calling Kim crazy (and you know who you are), call me crazy, too, but I agree with Kim: some of the more recent poems are tiresome, annoying, untenable, and off topic. Please visit my new Yahoo group and post there: tiresomeannoyinguntenableandofftopicstuffaboutSylviaPlath. Kim and I will see you there! Peter K. Steinberg
Melissa... You make some excellent points about emotional truth, as, in a sense (as you insinuated) this is really the function of poetry anyway. The definition of honesty, as applied to art, does indeed have many contexts, the least signifigant of which may be "what actually happened" in the most technical sense. Without truth, after all, there is no metaphor. Metaphors seek to illuminate truth in a context outside of the black and white reality of it, as does (of course) poetry. Fictionalized accounts, no matter how "ugly" their context, are always, I think, a way of romanticizing the events which they, like dreams, seek to turn inside out and explain. A dream might be interpreted as a "long cut" (to coin a lame phrase) as opposed to a shortcut...to the truth. ....ie, the final analysis and meaning is there, but it is only accessible through an extremely dense and difficult maze of symbolism, metaphor, and free association. In real life, of course, the fact is always glaringly right there. This is why I think Sylvia Plath, in her heart of hearts and perhaps largely unknown to herself, never truly had any desire for her conflicts to be resolved in any kind of ongoing and/or sustainable sense. I know her suicide would tend to indicate the opposite; but I don't think that genuinely ambitious writers are ever truly interested in "closure" in the most traditional sense of the word...at least not in any context that goes beyond publication and recognition of their work. Did Plath feel that, with Ariel, she had already completed her life's work, and was thus "safe" to die? I don't know. We all know, from her own notes, that she did feel she was writing "the best poems of my life; they will make my name", but whether or not she had any true sense of the majesty of what she had accomplished is debatable. Simultaneously, though, I do think she wanted love and safety above all other things, and therein lies her tragedy: that she just couldn't seem to stop picking at and researching extremes...until her marriage inevitably unravelled, due largely to her own (and Ted's) artistic temperaments. As has already been suggested by Jennifer in her excellent post, it is always difficult when two creative people attempt to cohabitate together and reconcile...and individually realize... their dual ambitions. Two people in love mostly with an ideal, who attempt to find it in each other, will almost always be let down...and here I, like Therresa, am speaking from what I hope is pertinent personal experience:-) In this sense Sylvia and Ted have a great deal in common with, say, characters like Gatsby, or Diane Selwyn in David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. When Plath met Hughes..."the one man I've known who could blast Richard {Sassoon}" she was obviously looking above and beyond him rather than objectively at him. The same can be said...as Kim eloquently pointed out....of Hughes and his string of women, which were really just the Muse Incarnate. Thanks, by the way, for quoting Graves's wonderful poem, Kim..... I may be the only person on this forum who hasn't read the Middlebrook biography yet, but I'm definitely going to look into it as soon as possible. I believe that Sylvia Plath wanted most desperately, most insatiably, to tell her story and to lead people into a sense of justice regarding what she had suffered; but the nature of her gift was to do it the hard way. Ultimately nobody can be blamed for this except Sylvia herself; but one can see how Assia's pathological narcissism and need for instant gratification...as opposed to Ted and Sylvia's endless search for symbols and the abstract...could have disastrous consequences. ...especially considering Sylvia's obsession with being the perfect wife, mother, projecting the desired image, etc. As the writer Florence King said of Sylvia (in an attempt to explain her initial Smith era breakdown, before she came into her own with Ariel)..."Instead of writing about what she wanted to do, she did what she wanted to write about. Truly creative people don't operate this way, and, deep down, she knew it." Thank you, Trish, for your very nice comments about my post :-)...it does seem as if Shura is always the last person whose signifigance and feelings are questioned in this debate. As she was just a little child, her individual voice will never be heard along with Assia's, Sylvia's, and Ted's. And by the way Therresa...I thought your post was quite relevant, and very interesting to boot. It definitely throws some more light on the nature of what Ted's relationship to both his mistress and his wife must have been. Personal experiences are always valuable in this sense. Lisa A. Flowers
I certainly have never put up a post speculating about Ted Hughes' physical attributes (nor Sylvia's, for that matter) and I resent the implication that I have. I could not care less about their physical lives together, but if someone else wants to write about that subject, I have no problem with it. I believe in people's rights to express themselves, even if somebody else might find distasteful; tsk-tsking and censoring other people's ideas has no place on a public forum. Otherwise, we might as well call it a "members only" place. If Elaine, forum administrator, feels a post is worthy of putting up, then it is. That simple .Trish
Regarding elements of "truth" in Plath and Hughes' writing: Emily Dickinson said: "Tell the truth, but tell it slant." I think that a writer has every right to bend the facts somewhat or completely when gleaning autobiography for fictional stories and poems. What I think every writer owes him/herself and the readers is emotional truth. Plath's earlier poems often seemed to lack this quality---Al Alvarez commented on the tension of her earlier work, like there was something lurking beneath its surface, something haunting Plath just out of the range of her vision.Her later poems, obviously,conquer her earlier reticence. In "Lady Lazarus", Plath makes reference to three suicide attempts. We all know about two of them. I've had students try to figure out when and where and how the first attempt in childhood occurred...I say, perhaps it did, and probably it didn't, but it's the emotional truth of that poem that makes it powerful, that makes the (us?) peanut-crunchers gasp.Something else to consider: Plath's voice in her Ariel poems seems to me to be a sort of creation (which is not to say artificial)of a kind of personae...a voice and self that is both her and not her...She is herself, but magnified and extraordinary...Bee Goddess, Lover,Destroyer, Voodoo preistess...she becomes the True Self of her imagination, which is real and not real at the same time, sort of the way your reflection in a mirror is you and not you. I am not sure if I am adequately articulating what I want to say. Ted Hughes does the same thing, but in a different way in his work. The voice of Crow is he, yet not he...perhaps one aspect, but not his entire, psyche...the same , I think holds for Plath's Ariel. Aurelia Plath published Letters Home to prove that Plath "wasn't really like that." But Plath wrote those poems in that voice for publication because that was the personae, the part of herself she did want the readers to see, not the gooey sentimentalist of the private letter to her mother. Melissa Carl
Kim, is there no room for anything personal here? Can we not gossip as well as analyse? Must you take everything so seriously, I was quite interested in Trisha's post. About Sylvia though I was wondering the otherday what exactly the course she studied at Smith was. I realised I never knew. Ciara
I'm not interested in engaging in an online debate with you, Kim. But you're contradicting yourself. By describing that particular poster's messages as "tiresome, annoying..." you're indicating very clearly that you consider them beneath you. It is up to Elaine, not you, to determine what is suitable for posting. Again, I must say, if you don't like what that partiuclar poster has put up, you have the option of skipping over her content. Trish
Kim, I take your less than veiled comments about my contributions to the Sylvia Plath Forum as a fine expression of the highest form of flattery. I want to say quite sincerely "Thank you very much" They were obviously insightful enough to strike a cord with you. This Is a public forum but hopefully not the center of our lives, certainly not the center of MY busy life. When a topic is chosen to be presented on this forum it is almost invariably because Elaine Connell believes that the posting has some relevance and/or merit. If in future my rambling and sometimes wonderfully profound contributions challenge your patience you always have the option of passing over them and chuckling to yourself about the "obtuseness" of others. Resorting to unsubtle personal attacks and insults only reflects quite poorly on the individual making the mistake of indulging in such behavior. I will continue to trust in Elaine Connell's judgment in choosing which postings she deems worthy enough to publish. Cheers and the best of luck to you! Therresa Kennedy
Lisa, enjoyed your posts. I was reminded when reading the last one about the influence that Graves' White Goddess had on Ted. Graves himself had a succession of women throughout his life who functioned as 'the muse' for him. Diane Middlebrook discusses the importance of woman as muse to Hughes' life and work in Her Husband. To Juan at the Winter Solstice Kim
This may sound odd, but I actually prefer some of Ted Hughes's poetry to that of Sylvia Plath. I think he was far more skilled as a poet, in his youth and in his later years. I do love SP's poetry very much, and I will always have my many favorite poems of hers. I don't know why it is but his poetry,[to me]is just more well balanced, more versatile and able to tackle many different types of subject matter and not just his typical poems about nature. To me his book Birthday Letters was a revelation and that is where I tend to find my favorite poems of his as well. I can totally understand Jillian Becker's postition that the poem "Dreamers" could be construed as anti-semitic, and as an attack on race, and perhaps even empowered female sexuality, as there are so many images of aggresive sexuality that are portrayed as threatening, unclean etc, but to me "Dreamers" is one of my absolute favorite poems about Assia. It captures so perfectly, her stunning multi-faceted look, her attitudes in their various hues and even a weak (yet admirable) kind of defense of her on Hughes's part. I think that Sylvia Plath's poetry is wonderfully unique and was a kind of birth to a special manner of composition but with TH, his poetry will always resonate far better with me, his ability with language being so much more sutble, intuitive and the wonderful written tricksy that he incorporates into his poetry is what has always kept me hooked. It is a pity that SP was not able to further deveop her potential as a poet and evolve over time, much in the manner that Hughes was. Therresa Kennedy
Amy...yes, good points. In Hughes's case, I think it's clear that he was always more interested in the "epic" than the expression of private experience; in many ways, perhaps, Sylvia strove for the opposite. In a 1972 edition of The Norton Anthology of Poetry, an excerpt from the preface about Hughes..which inevitably mentions Sylvia....says: "as poets they both dealt in raw sensation and lacerated nerves, though Miss Plath's work centered on the plight of the victim as her husband's centered on the conciousness of the predator. Both caught a note in an experience of relentless cruelty, which they tried to position in their verse." It is true that a lot of Hughes's writing...as you mentioned...seems to confirm, if not create, the myth of Plath as victim; ie, haunted by the spectre of her father, living on borrowed time, etc. As some biographers have suggested, this may have been Hughes's way of rationalizing his own guilt; whatever the case, his work does paint an evocative portrait of Plath. Again, it seems to me that Hughes simply wasn't interested in certain aspects of human intimacy (as opposed to human sexuality per se). Another thing I've noticed...maybe I'm not the first to do so.... is that his poems about Sylvia and Assia are often remarkably similar...in some ways, in fact, interchangeable; almost as if they weren't about two separate individuals at all, but one woman, a single doomed feminine entity. Sometimes they even have the same, or almost the same, titles; see "The Error", about Assia, as contrasted with "Error" (Birthday Letters) about Plath. In Hughes's view, then...I don't know....perhaps the two women were part of a "cosmic plot" of some kind that necessarily excluded him from responsibility. I realize that's a bold statement that can probably be more or less disproved; but there is evidence to suggest that it's at least true in a sense. Lisa A. Flowers
Trish, as a frequent poster to this site for several years now, I've always encouraged a diversity of opinion and thought about Plath and Hughes. However, I don't think obtuse insinuations about the size of Ted Hughes' 'member' and long riffs on personal sexual experiences relate to Sylvia Plathís life and poetry. Call me crazy. Certainly we all bring to the table the accumulated experiences and knowledge of our lives, and those experiences and that knowledge impact how we view the lives and the work of the people we are discussing ñ namely Plath and Hughes. But there is a way to impart and express that knowledge, in a public forum, without crossing the line of ìtoo much information.î I donít consider the post in question ëbeneathí me; I consider it tiresome, annoying, untenable and off topic. Kim
Lisa, somehow I missed your earlier post about little Shura. That was very empathetic and moving. And how true...the little child had her own integrity, her own life, outside of the context of being Assia's daughter. Trish
Amy, this is a very good point you present, that both Ted and Sylvia, many people in fact, can sometimes attempt to "filter" the truth of the actual events of their lives through poetry in an effort to suit their purposes, or perhaps to present more of an alluring depiction. There is often this idea that the details of one's own life are not as interesting or will be percieved as less interesting to those outside of the actual circle. "The grass is always greener..., that type of dynamic. I think that both TH and SP did this very thing with regard to their poetry. It is a manner of avoiding a kind of internal shame of sorts, and shame is something they both had vast experience with, given the circumstances of their lives, and some of the choices they made based on a lack of experience, insight or maturity. Also, hats off to Trish, thank you for defending our rights to discuss varied aspects of life in general and how it can relate to SP and/or TH. To those who consider these topics unworthy, well then you are welcome to move on in your cyber space travels. Therresa Kennedy
Lisa and Amy, I think you are both very astute in your observations. Middlebrook pointed out several similar inconsistencies in Hughes' life and in his writing -- most would probably be considered "minor" details, as he wrote that he bedded both Sylvia and Assia on the 13th of the month, which was inaccurate... but fit his purpose in writing. She noted a few other discrepancies too, but I can't recall the details at the moment. I doubt very much that Hughes had any reservations about "bending" the facts when it came to achieving an effect... I'm not saying he was a liar, I'm just saying that it seems he gave himself the usual "artistic license" when it came to the details. Jennifer
Lisa, You raise an interesting question about how literally we can take any of the writing either Plath or Hughes did about each other. I think that's a dangerous thing to do. They were both immersed in fiction and poetry and deeply interested in mythology. We know Plath would rebuild her tale to suit herself when needed (remember her telling what's-his-name in Ireland that she had "wintered in a lighthouse and that life was balm to her soul"? She never wintered in a lighthouse; I think she was trying out mythologic scenarios, and that one fit at that particular moment. Her letters to her mother are downright scary in terms of being so determined to present a certain type of persona. Hughes, I think, may have taken a similar approach. He had his own views of Plath and mythology, and Assia that way too. He seems very determined in his writing to present this view of Plath as hounded from the dead father from hell. Personally, I think she was even more complex than that, but it makes a great dark story as he tells it. Keep in mind I'm not criticizing him, just saying that as a great writer, he used his considerable gifts when filtering the facts of his own life. Amy Rea
Kim, I think there is room on this forum to post a number of different topics relating to Sylvia Plath's life and poetry. If you find a post uninteresting or 'beneath' you, you always have the option of skipping over it. Trish
Is this the Women Wounded by Infidelity Forum or the Sylvia Plath Forum? Did I make a wrong turn somewhere? Kim
Both the testimony of Jillian Becker in her memoir of Sylvia (as per Therresa) and the excerpt from the Middlebrook biography (as per Jennifer) insinuate that the chemistry between Ted and Assia was fleeting; and, initially at least, inconsequential. However, Hughes's own poetry about Wevill paints a far different picture. So was this, in fact, a matter of making " what was a sordid love affair and cruel betrayal into an event worthy of fate's attention" (to quote Becker) or the doomed epic of "Dreamers"? It is an interesting question to consider; and, I think, yet another instance of the reality of a given sitaution contrasted with the artist's penchant for transforming ordinary life into ...to borrow another phrase from Fitzgerald..."some sort of epic grandeur." I love Ted Hughes's work, but his attempts...with a few notable exceptions...at writing love poetry...be it about Sylvia or Assia...have always seemed, to me at least, to be rather unconvincing. He is at his best when writing about the natural world, about the "nature" of nature; about the violence inherent in human and animal sexuality...though even in this respect he is essentially a disciple of DH Lawrence. Though Birthday Letters was compelling and historically important, there were, in my opinion, only a handful of poems in it that were truly moving, "Freedom Of Speech" being perhaps the best example, along with "Life After Death", certain sections of "18 Rugby Street", and some others. Generally, though, there is very little real tenderness in his love poems...certainly not contrasted to, say, "Nick And The Candlestick", "Letter In November" etc. I guess most of this can be explained by the fact that the bulk of Hughes's work about Plath was written a good many years after her death, thus giving him an inevitable "head start" from the agony of the fact; I don't know if the same can be said of his poetry about Assia. In any case, though, there are bound to be discrepancies, as there are with almost any artist, between "what really happened" and what ended up finally being depicted on paper. Any thoughts.....? Lisa A. Flowers
I was just wondering, does anyone here have the track listing for The Voice of the Poet: Sylvia Plath, if it's not too much to ask, can someone post the tracklisting here or email it to me? Thanks. Roberto
While Sylvia did have some involvement with the occult (as has been stated here previously), the feeling I've gotten from reading extensively about her life is that her involvement was more influenced by her husband's fascintation with it - especially astrology. Ted made very few decisions in his life without consulting the stars, and was much of an astrologer himself. Sylvia, however, seems to have had most of her interest in it as a result of Ted's interest -- at times berating herself for not knowing astrology better (she writes of this in her journals on a couple of occasions.) Also, it is documented that the couple consulted an Ouija board to divine the outcomes of sports games as a way to earn extra money during their newly married years. Sylvia did use quite a bit of mythology and folklore in her writing, but again I believe that was largely influenced by Ted's knowledge and fascination with folklore and mythology. Ted was, up until his death, very involved in the occult, where Sylvia more or less "dabbled", as she dabbled in other areas of spirituality and religion throughout her life. Just my perspective. Jennifer
I want to comment on the Diane Middlebrook biography for a moment. I have been advised by a very well educated man and forum visitor, a person I genuinely admire for his wit and intellect, to read this book, as it is considered by many to be a very good and even handed biography. I have it on my list to buy as soon as I can. But I would caution readers of it to not take all quotations too literally, especially reputed talk about sex with Assia Wevill. Men, in this case TH, are notorious when it comes to being quite deceptive about the true nature of sex with another woman [to their wives.] Speaking from personal experience I can tell you a man can display the most unnerving compassion when confessing to his wife about an act of infidelity, at least if he plans on returning to the marriage, saving it, moving on, leaving the third party behind etc. It is rare that a man is truly honest with his wife, (and possibly the mother of his child or children) about the quality of sex with another woman. Men have nothing to gain on any level by saying, "You know honey, it was just terrific, it only you were that good" Husbands know that whether they meant to hurt their wife or not it becomes a question of "Is she better in bed than I am?", husbands can intuit this instantly and many times will try to soften the blow by saying "she was as limp as a bone fish", or "She was like having sex with a dead person" etc. They will play down the actual event for the betrayed wife in order not to wound the wifes ego any more than has already taken place. I find it highly unlikely that Assia Wevill was a bad lay, pardon my French. I do agree that it is quite probable that she had initially been "horrified" by sex with TH [at first.] I have read in several different books and articles that she was, that she claimed he had virtually ripped her silk blouse off her person and had then menacingly informed her they wouldn't be leaving the room for two days. But that kind of intitial horror can be replaced quite quickly with a growing interest. Sexually responcible and/or interested women like to know that a man can abandon all pretence at civility and can give himself over entirely to the experience, even while maintaining tenderness, it gives them permission to enjoy the act as well. Self conciousness is lessened, real pleasure is heightened. I also think that Assia's initial repulsion may also have been because of Ted Hughe's well known lack of interest in his own personal hygiene. I have read that despite Sylvia's love for Ted, she could become quite disgustd with his at times over ripe appearance and aroma. From some of, no many of the photos I have seen of Ted Hughes he always seems to look as if he is in desperate need of a shampoo, I can only imagine the rest. He was called Ted Huge at his university during his youth and it probably wasn't only just a play on his last name, or his actual body mass, height etc. I doubt he would have stayed with Assia if she had not been able to satisfy him quite effectively on some sexual level. I DO suspect he lied to his wife Sylvia, like many men will do, in an attempt to save her from further self inflicted torture, obsessing in blue hued tones about what he and Assia had done together in private. And I do agree that his life with Sylvia had probably been exhausting and stifling, due to her relentless and annoying possessiveness, typical Scorpio traits, and as he had studied astrology and other aspects of the occult arts he probably also knew of those potential risks in his repore with her. I myself am a firm believer in various occult arts and astrology is among them. The point of this is that biography is such an intrinsically difficult genre as is is, and so much must be questioned regarding accuracy, sources and credibility, that when it comes to talk about what "so and so" said regarding sex and sexual performance in an act of infidelity, well, these statements simply must be taken with a huge grain of salt, because in that particular arena, more than any other, motives must be questioned and not simply taken as fact. Just because he said it wasn't good doesn't mean it wasn't good. Those of us who have lived passionate lives and longer than 35 years usually learn this in some manner or another. Therresa Kennedy
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