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Messages from May-June 2005 Hi, I wonder if someone can help me with identifying a poem of Sylvia's that was briefly quoted in the movie Sylvia with G.Paltrow? She says a few lines of the poem when she's in the boat with Ted, after she has told him she tried to drown herself once. She recites what seems to be a poem about losing her father, and uses sea metaphors such as coral and pearls. Can anyone help me locate this poem in its entirety? Thanks! Julie
I find this a very interesting idea, Nancy. Those of you who have read my book Sylvia Plath: Killing The Angel In The House may remember that I make some references to the strand of female masochism and submission to men that I feel runs throughout much of Plath's work. It is this need for pain and submission plus the hostility to other women in her oeuvre, which leads me to believe that we can't claim Plath to be the feminist writer which some critics and scholars have maintained her to be. I think this could be a very interesting discussion and would like to invite Nancy to make the first contribution to the poem "Poppies in July" which I will put up on the site after a trip I shall soon be taking. What do others think? Elaine Connell
I hinted at a new perspective in my letter to the forum dated June 3, 2005 and received a positive response personally through e-mail. It is just now, however, that I've opened myself up to the possibility that the forum itself may be interested. I've always sensed a particular struggle and desire in Plath's work; perhaps because they are so like my own, perhaps because I suffer from some of the same mental anguish (diagnosis) as Plath. My particular viewpoint and analysis is what most people would consider avant-garde, however, it appears to me that the women (and men) on this forum are highly intelligent, open-minded individuals. It is my hope that they would welcome an opportunity to further delve into the mysteries of Plath's mind. That being said, without further ado, I am referring to the needs, desires and identity that are the essence of a submissive woman. So much of her poetry describes the need for pain, a release of her tortured soul through pain, the understanding of pain. It is true that most people do not understand submission or simply accept media propaganda or its DSM accredited psychopathology, but I truly hope that you will see my true intention. The poem I would like to offer up to the forum is somewhat obscure and appears to be disregarded as a "valid" poem for anaylsis. My point exactly! What is that element we so easily dismiss or deny in ourselves!!! (All of us have dominant or submissive personalities. We just don't develop or nuture them.) There are other poems that are saturated with the conflict aspect, most predominately "The Jailor", but none speaks so clearly as "Poppies In July". The latter is the poem I put forth to the forum; in part "...If my mouth could marry a hurt like that..... " I would be most welcome to provide more information and insight and personal anaylsis from this perspective. I would truly love to have a sincere, serious discussion/debate with the forum. Nancy
To Lexan...I agree with your perception of "Edge." It almost seems as if Plath is sitting back in the poem, rather disinterestedly watching herself, though with great admiration. This poem is a perfect example of how it is possible to articulate the most extreme resignation...which has come (of course) as a result of the most complete despair.... in a form that is completely free of sentimentality. Though this poem may describe a Greek tragedy, it is nothing like one in its cool, almost scientific detachment. If poems like "Getting There" are a sort of agonized churning factory, "Edge" is their finished product. To David and Trish, too, interesting points re: the role Plath's illness played in her final work. Theodore Rotheke and Lowell (who, of course, Plath was also heavily influenced by) are interesting examples of this phenomenon. However, I'm not sure how much of their work was written after the fact, so to speak (ie, I don't know if Lowell was able to write during his famous manic episodes, or only in between them...a biography could probably answer those questions). Then again, maybe accomplishment and circumstance are one and the same; Roethke seemed to summarize it best in his short poem "Heard In A Violent Ward:" "In heaven, too you'd be institutionalized but that's okay if they let you eat and swear with the likes of Blake and Christopher Smart and that sweet man, John Clare." Speaking of Roethke, his poem "Otto" (from his posthumously published collection The Far Field,1964) is downright creepy as contrasted to Plath's work. I may be creeping out on a limb of ignorance here, as I'm not sure when this poem originally appeared, if there's an obvious historical significance to it, if Plath ever saw it, or even if there's been Plath related studies of it; but in the first stanza, the poem's subject is "the youngest of a strange brood/a Prussian" and in the second stanza the speaker is "no more than seven at the time." A causal syncronicity, eh...or not? ?? Any scholars out there care to comment? Lisa A. Flowers
Does anyone have that lovely, brilliant passage in which Plath explains the "bell jar" as a foggy, muffling barrier separating her fom the outside world? I'm working on a documentary on ADD... and since 1988, The Bell Jar has been the only writing (mental varieties & other human complexities nonwithstanding) that ever made perfect sense to me. Peter Sandifer
There is actually an exhibit on, I think, at The Tate on an almost identical theme Cressida. Maybe that's yours! Rehan Qayoom
"Poor Sylvia was apparently gripped with misery at the time she wrote these last few poems. How could a woman so troubled with mental illness create something so spare, so perfectly beautiful as "Edge"? Is it just a mark of her genius?" While Sylvia was indeed gripped with misery, I don't know that she felt the full force of her suffering at every moment of every day. It seems (and I could be wrong about this) that in those last months of her life, that she suffered most at night time, and in the early morning--when her loneliness and abandonment were the hardest to escape. So she escaped into her writing, and there she found a 'companion' to help blunt the pain of her suffering, so to speak (though ultimately the writing couldn't be enough--probably nothing could be enough, but of course Ted being there might have helped her feel 'ok' at least awhile longer). It's my belief that when she was writing, she escaped her pain for the duration of her writing process--though of course never entirely. She also escaped it in the daily busyness of life (in the day, not the night, when things quiet and become dark and lonely). I also don't think she was ever incapacitated in the way a person who is severely mentally ill is. She still got out of bed in the mornings. Unfortunately, it seems that these are the people we lose--the ones who still have enough strength and resolve in them to foresee their presumed miserable future and to end it while they still have the power to do so. As for her being a genuis--absolutely. But her ability to write through the pain wasn't a mark of it I don't think. That was more her own resolve (she was very tough for being so fragile). The genuis simply shone out because that's what genius does. Only her death could truly snuff it out. Kate Durbin
If you look in the index to Plath's Journals, you will see that Plath has several references to Adrienne Cecile Rich (ACR). She envied Rich's early success. She met her when she was living in Boston with Hughes and describes her as opinionated and having wonderful eyes. Yes, she admired Rich. Who would not? Rich had already done what Plath hoped to do--win the Yale Younger Poets' Prize. And had published poems Plath envied for their philosophical depth. Plath also loved and identified with Sexton and her psychological problems, but if I were to describe her favorites in poetry, they would be mostly male--Dylan Thomas (who shares her birth date), Wallace Stevens, and--no surprise--Ted Hughes. Plath had disparaging comments about earlier women poets in her letters. Take a look--it's all there. Lynda Bundtzen
With reference to David's comments regarding Plaths poem "Edge" and its possible relation to her state of mind at the time of her suicide, I read it and thought that despite its unabated intellectual excellence, it still seemed in a way the work of someone detached with resignation. Plath, it felt like, was almost savouring a melancholic romanticism. The structure may indicate being of sound stable mind but I felt the content, references and musings did not. I had not read it before but was litle surprised by it really. Even in a depressive state I am sure the rudiments of form may be easily recalled and adhered to by such an accomplished and dedicated poet. Just an opinion, but something about the poem seemed crazed, brilliant but crazed nonetheless. Lexan
As the late Daniel Moynihan liked to say, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not to our own facts. Kim
I may be in the minority here, but I'm not at all troubled by the "catfighting" going on this board. There's nothing wrong with intelligent, opinionated women having at each other. For the record, Melissa, Therresa and Cressida are witty and interesting women; so what if they disagree? (Men are allowed to disagree, without poeple getting upset!) I wish I knew all three of 'em better. Anyway, I agree, David, that "Edge" is an absolutely perfect, disciplined piece of work, almost Bach-like in its precision and beauty. Which is puzzling to me. Poor Sylvia was apparently gripped with misery at the time she wrote these last few poems. How could a woman so troubled with mental illness create something so spare, so perfectly beautiful as Edge? Is it just a mark of her genius? (Yes, to the gentleman from Texas; I consider her a "genius" of her generation. Sorry that you don't get her.) Could she have created something better if she were not so ill? This is genuinely puzzling to me; would love to hear anybody's opinion. Also, to some of you Plath scholars, who were the women poets that Plath most admired? I know about Anne Sexton and Ruth Fainlight, of course. Did she admire Adrienne Rich, or was she ambivalent about her? Thank you! Trish
Remember when we were all discussing Robin Morgan recently? (Heatedly, of course!) Robin Morgan always reminded me of Andrea Dworkin, 'though I think Andrea was the better writer. Did you all know that Andrea passed away a couple months ago? Whether one agreed with her radical feminism or not, she was certainly a seminal writer. Didn't she at one time publish an essay about Sylvia? Anybody remember? Trish
Yes, David, exactly right! It seems some of the Forum contributors are engaged in something very much indeed like a cat-fight. The sarcasm, one-upmanship, the manner which some posters insist on clinging to their own idea of (subjective) poems, no matter what new material may be unearthed to explain a portion of it-the only perspective sought is one's own. Other ideas are cast aside without proper scholarship. Seems a bit rigid, especially in the tradition of poetry, but, you realize, this is merely my own opinion! And naturally, this in no way represents Elaine Connell. She does not censor; she graciously allows the Forum to reflect its contributors. Of late, some of the contributors appear rather distraught, going out of their way to be hurtful to others. I suppose this goes along with the cult of Sylvia herself and will probably always be there to some extent. An English professor of mine once said that whatever got people interested in poetry was a good thing. I feel the same myself. It's just that we need to remember that this is not a competition--it is a Forum. Having ideas challenged is ultimately good for us and for our ideas. It is what broadens the mind and makes the spirit soar! Claudette
Therresa, and Claudette, I am sorry. (I am an awful person) I just can't resist getting in Melissa's crosshairs occasionally, we go back a long way. I was serious when I mentioned the article from the Atlantic magazine though. It is "Food For Thought" even though my friend Melissa does not think so. Cressida Hope-Bunting
Hi David, and many thanks for your contribution. I was completely serious about asking Therresa to start off a discussion of "Lesbos" by making a contribution that I could then put up in the Poetry Analysis section. That same offer applies to anyone, including yourself if you would like to begin it. That is a section of the Forum I would like to develop more, but I don't always want to be the person who sets off the discussion. I have my own particular interpretation of Plath's work and I don't think it's a good idea for the same person to be the first contributor as s/he often establishes the parameters of the debate which is why I have held back from putting up even more poems than there are in that section at the moment. I want others to volunteer to begin as well as me. So if you would like to? I feel sure that both Therresa and myself will eagerly follow with our own ideas. Elaine Connell
To Claudette (I think) who asked if the Forum hadn't become sort of a Rave: Not so much a Rave as what used to be called -- at the risk of sounding sexist -- a "cat fight". In this case, intelligent, opinionated women having at one another. Maybe it would be good/therapeutic for us to get back to the poetry. Elaine, are/were you serious about asking for interpretations of "Lesbos"? I looked into my 1978 dissertation on Plath and found that I'd spent several pages on that poem. Or was reference to it just a diversion, on someone's part, to keep going a squabble about whether Sylvia knew what she was writing in those last days of her life, or whether she was zonked out on drugs and/or just too depressed to think straight? (For the record, I think it might have been all of the above, and I offer as evidence her last poems, which stand up to the most stringent of critical analyses: "Edge" is an almost a perfect poem, a model of authorial control.) The fine balance between discussion of the poet and discussion of the person/wife/jilted lover seems to have blurred recently in The Forum. Can we either define it better -- or maybe blur it further? David Hall
I am doing Plath's work in school at the moment and I have to say I feel her earlier work lacks emotion and it's as if she hid her real self from the media and public. She came across as so perfect. I have read Ted Hughes's Birthday Letters and they are incredible. It's totally changed my view of him and their marriage. I was wondering if Plath was known to have a medical condition? Although I guess they wouldn't have been able to diagnose her at that time. Her later work is so different and so truthful. I found it much more interesting, but her obsession with death and her father was so depressing, I read the poem "Daddy" and was intrigued Lozza
Hi, I have been studying Sylvia Plath and I was wondering the following: How doe she fit in the literary or critical canon? What major contribution does this poet make to her generation? I am just wondering because she seems like the regular poet to me, but maybe there is something else I am not seeing. Thanks, please email me your responses ladies and gents. Mike Liang
Yes, yes, yes, a rave? A rave. Yes, I am beginning to see it unfurl before my very eyes. Guess that is one of the many reasons this site is so compelling, interesting etc. Well, as to my analysis of "Lesbos"? Yes, I will deliver. It won't be for a few days. The term just ended and I am taking a much needed break. I am also taking one class over the summer. A poetry class, just for fun, relaxation etc. I am very busy, but since Kim and most notably Elaine Connell has asked me to deliver with my own personal analysis, I shall do so, as thoughtfully as I can, when I can. I can only say, that I will stand by my own interpretation of "Lesbos" til my dying day. Please understand that not one person is encouraged or pressured to agree with me, I totally respect and understand diversity of opinion. I am not so naive as to think we all have to agree. But part of my belief that "Lesbos" is based so directly on Assia is that I know how deceptive Sylvia Plath could be. She was not a saint, could lie and was capable of many of the most mundane examples of mediocrity and pettyness. I love her poetry, feel compassion for what she suffered, but do not hero worship her or see her in an unrealistic light. She was only a young, inexperienced woman at the time of her death and not an oracle. Therresa Kennedy
Claudette, Elaine manages this forum very well, she will not let it degenerate into a rave. In fact I don't think enough credit is given to Elaine's efforts. She has kept this forum running in the same familiar format for many years. A task of which I would have become very weary. People come and go but she soldiers on, she must have read thousands of posts by now, sifting through the chaff. Good work Elaine, you have given hundreds of people pleasure, on behalf of all the posters and lurkers. Thank you. Now to a more serious note. The second poem in my soon to be released book:- Odes to Melissa Dobson and Ezra Pound is called, "Laconic". Laconic, Laconic, Laconic, Laconic, Laconic, Laconic. (Not my best work, I think "Dust" is better) Cressida Hope-Bunting
I wish I were a better satirist, Therresa, then you wouldnít have had to ask! I regret contributing to the Rave atmosphere; mine was a knee-jerk response to a posting that I read as condescending and dismissive. Provoked my amateurish ire. My apologies. I have great respect for the Forum and its archive, for its moderator Elaine Connell, and for its role in bringing a great many readers to Plath and creating a space for creative dialogue about her work and life. Melissa Dobson
From an interview with film director David Lynch, on his own work: "You don't ever have to articulate these things to somebody. They're just allowed to kind of swim. You're not subject to people judging them or anything. They just swim, and you don't really worry about what they mean. It's all feelings; it feels right and you know intuitively what it's doing, and you work from that level. It somehow turns in to being an honest thing if you stay on that level...and just let those ideas swim around, down where you capture them." (Midnight Movies, J.Hoberman & Jonathan Rosenbaum, 1983) Thus is poetry, and the metaphor of fish as life ...not merely debris hurtling through the cosmos and the subconscious. As a poet myself, I also often don't bother about the meaning of my work (at least not until I'm ready to edit it) but in other words (and in response to Cressida's post) while it may be the method of the poet may be to work in the above cited method , to dismiss that method as meaningless is as arrogant as dismising any force of nature that exists outside ourselves. The seas roll on and so does life on other continents; somewhere on the other side of the world the sun rises. It is also true that the majority of humanity, throughout the course of human history, was probably not overtly preoccupied with posterity; and as such went about the daily routines of their lives assuming their eventual deaths would assure their privacy; but for us to accept that our ancestors, in their everyday lives " didn't even bother whether {they} understood what {they} were doing themselves" would leave us bereft of our own heritage. I'm not sure I'm making myself clear here...what I mean is that I think it utterly irresponsible to chide people for attempting to explore, and/ or "endlessly analyze" a work or art and their own literary history (ie, I think you're maybe mistaking the method of the artist for the significance of the art itself). It's like saying the bones of the ancients should have been left in their tombs rather than studied by archaeologists. Lisa A. Flowers
Is it me, or is this Forum beginning to resemble a Rave? Claudette
"Hello Melissa, Gosh, nice to hear from you again...such a long time eh? To quote a line from Seinfeld's Elaine " My hair was shorter then." Glad you and Therresa liked my poem, (you can't imagine how many long nights I walked the floor composing that one) I really wish I could take you up on your invitation to add my humble opinion to the many learned analyses of Plath's work but unfortunately I am too busy with my exhibition of modern art at The Tate Gallery. My work is entitled "Illusions of the Pleistocene Epoch" or "A Speck of Dust in the Eye of a Caterpillar". I used four pots of paint this time and rode a tricycle instead of a bicycle over it. I think you would like it Melissa ......You too Therresa. Cressida Hope-Bunting
Dear Shannon: For what it is worth, it was vey clear to me as a viewer that your comment was seriously out of context-- I am a Smith alumna myself (class of 1986) as well as a poet, and understand where Susan Van Dyne was coming from, but I cringed for your sake when they made that juxtaposition. They should not have done that. Whatever the case, your work with the Plath manuscripts sounds fascinating! I hope you are enjoying life in Cambridge (are you in grad school?) and that you are still writing poetry. I hope we get a chnace to meet one of these days-- its always a pleasure to meet another Smith alumna and poet! Take care and don't worry-- you were great! Suzanne Burns
It's been a while now since we had a new poem put up on the Poem Analysis section. I always need a first contribution to the discussion of any particular poem and for obvious reasons I don't like to be the one who always begins the discussion. How about sending me your detailed analysis of "Lesbos", Therresa? I will then put it up along with the text of the poem itself and we can throw it open to the group. I think this would be very valuable as I am always receiving emails requesting information about or analysis of this poem from those desperate students out there. Elaine Connell
Nancy, in my opinion I don't think that the posters in the this forum in any way idolize Assia (or anyone else), but in most cases view her as simply another human being who had both good qualities and bad, and whose life for better or worse has been inextricably bound with Plath and Hughes. But the messages can be confusing, I admit, and I am somewhat stymied myself. For example, in March 2004, Therresa posted a message that called Assia "evil", "conniving", etc. However, just last month Theressa advocates the saving and publishing of photos of the lovely, complex Assia and calls herself a "Assiaphile". Perhaps I'm just dense and and there is sarcasm lurking about, but as I said, it's difficult to tell. Therresa, have you changed your mind or are you pulling our collective limb? As for the detailed analysis on "Lesbos", I have your email address - if you hold the mouse cursor over the name of the poster it pops up. So, if you don't wish to submit your ideas to the group, by all means do send them to me directly. I sincerely look forward to reading your ideas about this poem. Kim
Discussion of the Dickey poem (which I am now very juiced to read) puts me in mind of the opening of Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, another falling-out-of-a-plane interlude. I just had the pleasure of seeing a short animated film about Philippe Petit, who tight-rope-walked between the Twin Towers in 1974; which in turn put me in mind of Laurie Anderson's "O Superman," which I have recently returned to thanks to I-Tunes. "By the roots of my hair some god got hold of me," says Plath. "I sizzled in his blue volts like a desert prophet." Melissa Dobson
Phil
Hi Nancy, You should go back and read my past posts and others too, to get a real idea of what my thoughts and others thoughts are on Assia Wevill. We hardly hero worship her, and I am the first to condemn her for her part in the suicide of Sylvia Plath, and Assia's part truly was diabolical. And we all know how she murdered her four year old daughter Shura, but she is a compelling and fascinating character and was part of the triangle which led to the suicide of Sylvia Plath and herself, not to mention the murder of an innocent child. I have always maintained that Assia Wevill really was the most destructive and dark force from the very beginning. You need to go back to previous posts and read them and you will see more of what people really think about with regard to Assia Wevill. But rest assured she is not hero worshipped by me at least, not at all. I am simply like others, fascinated by what was her ability, in her life, to completely focus on herself. That kind of sociopathy has always kind of struck me as compelling, because I do not understand it. Hence, my attempt to grasp it, understand it, from studying others. This is why she is so interesting to me, because I could never have done or do what she was willing to do so easily. There is something of mystery in her that has always attracted my interest. Therresa Kennedy
Hello Melissa Dobson, Uh, maybe I'm just dense or something, but what was your last post all about? I was completely lost, and I generally am able to understand easily what most people try to get across. Maybe you could explain? I really was lost with that last bit directed to Cressida. How many times did you repeat her name, like six? Is she not entitled to think what she wants about poetry, or poets? You know we cannot all agree, that is simply the way things are when fine art is the topic being discussed. Sharing opinions, disagreeing about these types of things do make life more interesting, but your post sounded strangely like a rather sarcastic attack, but maybe I just misread it, would you care to clear this up for me? Truly, I'm interested. Therresa Kennedy
Ever the firebrand, Cressida! Ever the provocateur. So precocious in your early posts -- always drawing us in, inciting us to respond -- but I must confess I'd forgotten your message. And then here, such an incisive, scintillating literary analysis. Plath wrote without any meaning whatsoever! Of course! This answers every inquiry. The goddess motif, for one. A poet who shot out thunderbolts, like Zeus, but without any real destination, just to get rid of the godhead. The poet who spoke in tongues of flame (that meaningless lot of hot, hot words), but who didn't know what in hell she was saying, or wanted to say? Brilliant, Cressida. Flame is merely a manifestation of natural power, after all. And your own poem -- Dust. What a great manifestation of this power, Cressida. I am in the process of creating a website, Cressida.com, but unfortunately the URL has been claimed. By you, perhaps? All of us here at the Plath Forum want to worship Plath, you know, but we really don't know why. And here, in you, we have the answer. There is no reason why! Eliot (or his proxy, fascist-editor Pound), graciously provided us with pages and pages of Notes to "The Wasteland", the poem your post refers to. These Notes are almost as long as the poem, and certainly as bogus! Some scholars say the Notes have cleared things up, some that they have just led to more confusion, as explanations of allusions generally do. I urge you, Cressida, to be Pound to our beloved, thoughtless Plath. Provide a bogus Notes for us, to grasp onto. We're searching, Cressida. Plath's legacy resides in you! Melissa Dobson
Hi Cressida. Hey, I just have to say, I really liked your poem, "Dust". Was that serious or a bit of dry humor? In any event, I really liked it, the way you put it down, on the page. Very good, it really brought a smile to my face. It shows how wonderful poetry can be, and sometimes ironic too. I finish my second major this term! Yahoo for me! Take care people! Oh, ya, before I forget, Kim, if you want my in depth analysis of "Lesbos" Elaine will direct you to my email address and I would be happy to share my insights with you. Thanks for the comments. Therresa Kennedy
On "Falling" by James Dickey I suppose if any poem of mine has gotten much attention, "Falling" has. The original idea came out of a newspaper item I once read to the effect that an Allegheny Airlines stewardess had fallen out of an airplane and was found later on, dead. But when you have a little hint like this that entertains your imagination, you take off with it and make your own thing out of it. I made her fall from an airplane over the Midwest. It's not a jet. People think of it as a jet, but it couldn't possibly be a jet. If it had been a jet, it would be so high that she would have been flash-frozen. But if you're a poet, you can make it happen the way you want it to. So I made the plane one that would be flying at a speed and altitude over the Midwest at which such a thing could happen to the stewardess. "Falling" is a record of the way she feels as she falls; panic at first and then a kind of goddess-like invulnerability. She discovers that the human body can actually fly a little bit. She tries to find water to fall into, but in the end she can't and falls into a cornfield and dies there. She undresses on the way down, because since she's going to die she wants to die, as she says, "beyond explanation." She would rather be found naked in a cornfield than in an airline uniform. So she takes off everything, is clean, purely desirable, purely woman, and dies in that way. I also tried to think of the mystical possibility there might be for farmers in that vicinity, under those conditions. Many different interpretations have been given to this poem. A lot of people say that it's too far- fetched, that nothing like this would really happen. I'm quite sure it wouldn't. But I was interested in trying to determine, by using my own particular capacities, what might conceivably go on. I was interested in using the kind of time-telescoping effect that Bergson talks about in discussing the difference between clock time and lived time. It takes twenty minutes to read the poem, more or less. It surely wouldn't have taken her nearly that long to fall. But as to how long it seemed to her, that's quite a different thing. Time has a way of widening out when you're in an extreme adrenalin kind of situation. I felt justified in writing "Falling" the way I did. I wouldn't want to go back and try to write it again. I suppose there are faults in it which people will be pointing out to me for years, but I did it the way I wanted to do it, and I'll stand by that. I evolved the split line to try and do what I could to reproduce as nearly as I could the real way of the mind as it associates verbally. The mind doesn't seem to work in a straight line, but associates in bursts of words, in jumps. I used this technique for "Falling." From Self-Interviews. (New York: Dell Publishing Co., Inc., 1970. © 1970) by James Dickey. Judith Kroll
This is the first time I have entered this forum. I have read it with a lot of interest since I found it two years ago, I think, but I didn't dare to join because of the level. Some of you are writers, poets, and Plath scholars. But now I think I could help Pablo Robles to find poetry books of Sylvia Plath translated into Spanish. The poetry books by Sylvia Plath which can be found in Spanish are these:
Ariel (Publisher: Ediciones HiperiÛn (1995) ISBN: 84-7517-148-6 Bilingual Edition), Arboles en invierno (Publisher: Ediciones HiperiÛn (January, 2002) ISBN: 84-7517-708-5 Bilingual Edition), Antolog?, (Publisher: Visor Libros (2003) ISBN: 84-7522-929-8), Soy vertical. Pero preferir? ser horizontal ( Publisher: Grijalbo Mondadori, S.A. (1999) ISBN: 84-397-0300-7).
There is also a translation of The Bell Jar: La campana de cristal (Publisher: Editorial Espasa Calpe, S.A. ISBN: 84-239-9123-7) If Pablo or any of you would be interested on more books about Sylvia Plath, you will be able to find translations into Spanish of these other books:
Letters Home, The Journals of Sylvia Plath, (edited by Frances McCullogh), Johnny Panic and the Bible of Dreams, Sylvia Plath: A Biography, by Linda W. Wagner-Martin, Wintering: A novel about Sylvia Plath, by Kate Moses, Giving Up. The Last Days of Sylvia Plath, by Jillian Becker, The Savage God. A Study of Suicide, by Al Alvarez, The Silent Woman, by Janet Malcolm and Birthday Letters by Ted Hughes (Bilingual Edition). I could give the references of the books if you needed them. It might be possible to buy some of these books through the web page of these two booksellers: Thank you Elaine Connell for this wonderful forum and web page. (Hola Cristina & thanks for your appreciation. Please don't feel shy about contributing just because English isn't your first language. I can and do make the type of very minor adjustments that even a good command of the language such as yours occasionally requires. EC)Cristina Laguna
To Greg Hill-- I think that poem about the woman falling out of a plane appeared in The New Yorker and was based on a true story of a stewardess (as they were then called!) being sucked out of a plane. She winds up buried, impressed into, the earth below. I recall that my friends and I were knocked over by this poem. (Though I don't remember it having been dedicated to Plath.) I'm not 100% sure of this, but have the idea the poem was by James Dickey. Hope this helps. Judith Kroll
This e-mail is to Jen: Is there a possible connection here? We are both in our forties and writing on the forum. If I read your entry correctly, you are a Smith alumnae? If you feel like corresponding after reading my two entries you can reach me at the email given here. Look forward to hearing from you. Nancy
I've just read several e-mails on the subject of Assia Wevill and it has stirred up deep emotions in me, or perhaps I am missing something? I almost hope that I am!! Has anyone forgotten that Assia was Ted Hughes' mistress? That his infidelity produced an offspring? A child whose life Assia later took along with her own? It feels to me that she is being idolized. Why? That's not even considering theories of the dynamics or psychological pathology that "set the stage" for the total destruction of two different women. What about the distinct possibility that that since TH couldn't make up his mind between the two women, SP made it for him? Comments from anyone? Nancy
Greg, I read your post and got goosebumps! I have been looking for this poem everywhere. I have googled, asked English professors, and began to think I dreamed the poem up! Glad to hear someone else out there is searching for it. I had forgotten that it was dedicated to Sylvia, so obviously I read it in an anthology way back when. I do hope someone knows the author/title. My memory has the woman/speaker of the poem as a flight attendant, and I recall images of clothes on a clothesline as well as the houses below her as she falls. It is very moving and obviously surreal...would love to have a chance to read it again. Please someone help us out on this one! I suppose I should introduce myself!! My name's Jennifer Myers, and I've been a lurker on this forum for quite some time. I'm a stay-at-home mom of two small kids, ages 1 & 3. I worked in marketing for 15 years and now I'm back in school studying psychology. I've been reading Plath since 1985, when my first love gave me her Collected Poems as a Christmas gift. He is but a fond memory, but I'm always grateful that he introduced me to Sylvia Plath. I've read all of the biographies and even made "the pilgrimage" in 2000 to Fitzroy Road, Devon, and of course Heptonstall. I truly enjoy reading all of your opinions as many of you are quite knowledgeable on all aspects of Plath's life. I just finished reading Giving Up (yes, I know, I'm a little behind) and felt totally engrossed in Sylvia's last days. I'm very perplexed about that last Saturday evening she spent with---whom? Didn't Ted deny that it was him? Or did I miss somewhere that he admitted it was him? I know in the movie Sylvia we are led to believe that it was in fact Ted she saw on that fateful night. In my opinion, so much hinges on that meeting...with whomever it was. Wanted to finally jump in and say hello to all of you and possibly jump in on some of the conversations, between chasing the two kids and studying. Thanks for such an interesting forum! Jennifer Myers
Greg Hill: I seem to recall that James Dickey wrote a long poem years ago based on a true story about a stewardess (flight attendant) sucked out of a plane and falling to her death. This may be the poem you're seeking, though I may be mistaken. Anybody else? David Hall
I am an older woman (45) who has reconnected with Plath's work since reading The Bell Jar in my teens. Reading her poetry gives me a bond and understanding that I have neveryet had with another person in my life. I have memorized 14 of her poems so far and recite them constantly as mantras. In my internet search I have discovered that there is quite an angst ridden teenage audience for Plath, but I am seeking someone closer to my age with whom I can exchange ideas and anaylsis of her work on an intellectual as well as emotional level. The depth and scope of her imagery as much as the passion and intensity of her work excites me with a mania I have no wish to contain, and long to share with someone else. I am an alumna of Skidmore College - class of '82. Perhaps this information will help establish a connection "out there." Frieda Hughes vehemently states that people recreate her mother as a "spokeswoman" for a myriad of causes, but that the only way to really know her mother is through her poetry. I passionately agree! With this in mind, I have a unique analytical perspective that I innately sense in her work and would love to begin a discussion group from that viewpoint. More on what "that" is later. Nancy
Food For Thought! Just to review what I said aeons (or eons) ago about S.P. just throwing words on to paper in her poems, some of them drug induced as towords the end of her life. I thought you may be interested in this snippet from the July/August edition of the Atlantic Magazine. "Breath Of Dust. I wasn't even bothering whether I understood what I was saying," T. S. Eliot said of The Waste Land. A new guide to the poem inadvertently suggests we should take him at his word by Christopher Hitchens." Perhaps someone should take the time to do such an insightful study of Sylvia Plath's motive behind her poetry. It may help the people who endlessly try to analyze what she didn't care whether she understood herself. Here is a copy of my latest poem. DUST Cressida Hope-Bunting
Greg Hill
Pablo Robles
Therresa, it's fine if you don't want to agree with my "opinion", as I'm not a scholar, but you might want to take into account information by noted Plath scholar Lynda Bundtzen (author of The Other Ariel, etc.. She is the "poster" who wrote about the Electra complex. As for your close reading of the poem, detailed analysis of this kind is also what this Forum is about, so if you are gong to assert that "Lesbos" is about Assia it would be a good idea to show everyone why. You might actually persuade someone to agree with you. It does take energy, but since you are a frequent and lengthy poster to this site, I can't imagine it would be too difficult. I for one would really like to know more. Kim
I just read The Silent Woman by Janet Malcolm (published in 1993) and noted the spots where she mentions Richard Sassoon. She writes that little is known of him. And yet this figure/person meant so much to SP. Since Malcolm's book, has there been any info about Sassoon? Does anyone know? What happened to him after SP knew him? Has any writer/journalist ever approached him for interviews? Is he now deceased? I have mixed feelings about the Janet Malcolm text. For anyone who has read Malcolm's book, what do you make of her distant voice within the text about SP? In the book she admits a sympathy/liking of Ted Hughes, but does not seem to reveal her personal ideas of SP...I got the sense when reading it, that Plath's literary critics are neurotic about not being neurotic about her, but end up reading quite neurotic anyway, so why try? I am writing a novel right now where the main character reads Sylvia Plath. Lines of SP's work appear in my manuscript, but I do now know how to go about quoting it--how do I know what lines to get permission/copyright for and what not? I am a first-time novelist/writer who lives in the Twin Cities, and just beginning my formal research into Plath, but have been reading her for a good seven years, post college. She was not read at all at the university where I attended, and I studied her quite independently. Need research guide for my formal study of Plath. Noukou Thao
Thank you for the lovely photo of Assia, however, this is not really a "new" photo The picture is from the Elaine Feinstein book on Ted Hughes, The Life Of A Poet.It is included in the several photos that are in the book, not too many of Assia, sadly. (I meant that the photo was a new addition to the Forum's photo gallery, not a new photo discovery. EC) What is really sad is that I exchanged several emails with Assia's ex-husband Richard Lipsey, several months ago, a very nice and gracious man (with whom Eilat Negev has contacted for her biography on Assia Wevill) and he admitted to me that while he did have photos of Assia, "in a dusty cupboard somewhere", he said that since Ms. Negev had not "asked" him for any of these photos he did not offer her any. Quite logical for an Economics professor I suppose. How very sad. In any event, there are other photos of Assia out there and I just pray they do not fall into the wrong hands, in other words, end up accidentally or intentionally thrown out, destroyed etc. That would be a tragic loss. I think the photos Richard Lipsey does have should be shared with the biographer Ms. Negev, because obviously I think that the more photos included in her book the better the public and academia will be able to get an idea of who this woman was.The complex and lovely Assia Wevill, that Lipsey knew and called "Pamela". Bet none of you knew that one did ya? Pamela does seem a huge departure from Assia. I have a sneaking suspicion that the photos Lipsey does have, are probably really lovely ones, as they were taken in the prime of Assia's beauty, youth etc. Hopefully, these photos will not be lost. It would be such a comfort to Plathophiles and Assiaphiles like me, to know that these photos have been transfered to safe hands. What do you say Mr. Lipsey? At least think on it, it would be a huge waste to let those photos go to waste. Therresa Kennedy
Shannon-I sincerely apologize for causing you any hurt as a result of my cavalier comments-I was being a little too tongue in cheek, and believe me, I can relate to the problem of one's words being edited out of context-or put into a context that doesn't serve oneself as well as might be...I was thinking also of myself with my "ah, youth" remark-it's not a dig, honestly-but was meant as a rueful smile of sorts, thinking as I was of myself at your age (I'm 43 now)...and after all, I did suggest Sylvia would very well have made similar comparisons in such an interview-not bad company! I hope I don't denigrate youth for its own sake-to do so is certainly wrong. Better to be bursting with enthusiasm, romanticism and imagination at the start of an artistic career than to adopt a too-hip-for-the-room pose of ennui! To be fair to you(after having made those remarks concerning your brief remarks as shown), I am also aware of the distinction of being a Smith student and graduate-no mean feat, in '53 or now. You've already come further than many people twice your age by that achievement. If I remember it correctly, your comments about the things you have in common with Sylvia were prefaced by a fairly plummy piece of narration to the effect of her influence on the students of today, or following in her footsteps, or something along those lines: it'd be tough for anyone to measure up after an hour of focus of the poet herself. But it wasn't a big deal...this will teach me to be more careful about tossing around comments on the internet! I of course never dreamt you'd read that yourself (which is no excuse). Many thanks for the information illuminating the access to Plath's papers at Smith. I browsed the library holdings online a short time ago. As an illustrator, I was particularly interested in the boxes of Sylvia's artwork-I wonder, have you had a chance to look over any of that? I'm sure all visitors to the forum would also be fascinated to know what effect the study of Sylvia's original ephemera had upon you...if you'd care to recount it. Again, thanks for posting and the best of everything to you in your career. Jen
Hi Mikki.....this is only my interpretation, but I've always thought the answer to Plath's "Wuthering Heights" lies, perhaps, in the lines, "there is no life higher than the grasstops/or the hearts of sheep, and the wind/pours by like destiny, bending everything in one direction/I can feel it trying/to funnel my heart away." This is a poem in which a human being is put to ultimate use, forfeiting their own happiness to fate. There a jealousy of nature, and its paradoxical simplicity, that is also inherent. The landscape of the poem appears to be emptying itself of images even as we watch. There is the homelessness of relentlessness there, too, or more precisely, the homelessness of an active duty that cannot rest ("hollow doorsteps go from grass to grass"). But the last stanza leads us from the stoicism of fate and the natural world into a sudden...and nearly terrifying...realization of the fragility of nature; the grass is, after all, is "too delicate/for a life in such company." Whatever the case, this poem itself is homeless; neither it nor its protaganist have any real destination, except in perfection, which Plath has already summarized in "The Munich Mannequins: ("perfection is terrible; it cannot have children") I don't know if this is an accurate interpretation or not; because many of Plath's work is above and beyond my comprehension. This is one reason I love it so: much of it is a mystery...not a work finished, but one that doesn't necessarily know any more about itself than we do. The poems discover clues along with us rather than sitting there in crypted splendor with the secrets of the ages. In this sense, I would agree with Theresa that Plath is an accessible poet. But let us not mistake accessible for easy: an audition, as well, is open to anyone who wishes to go for it, but there's no guarantee they're going to get the part. And maybe Plath was thinking something like this in "Wuthering Heights", what with her recurring images of hinges and doors. As for Ted Hughes's version, it seems to confirm that Sylvia perhaps felt she had come into a point in history too late...everything is gone, every trace of what she had always imagined. Hughes poetry in general is easier than Sylvia's, as his imagery tends to be straightforward rather than surrealistic; but I believe they were equally great writers. On a completely unrelated subject, I want to comment for a moment on a bizarre statement Diane Middlebrook makes on page 186 of Her Husband. "Rage is not a common source of inspiration for any artist," Middlebrook writes, "and it is small wonder that Plath resisted its force in her own imagination." What?? Since when, at any point in history, has anger not been a driving factor in art?
I don't want to start rattling off names, but everybody from Chaucer to Dickens to Poe to Djuna Barnes to Charles Bukowski has been, at some point in their development, driven to produce works from such a force. I find this comment absolutely inexplicable...so much so, in fact, that I wonder if it isn't I who missed the point; and I rather wish Middlebrook had taken the time to expand upon her observation. Did anyone else notice this/find it odd? Middlebrook's assertion that Hughes was fulfilling his moral obligations by embracing his animal nature is also rather curious. If nature is what we were put on this earth to overcome, as Katharine Hepburn says in The African Queen, then how does such an argument fit into the intellectual evolution of humanity? Why bother entering into a partnership at all? The answer, according to Middlebrook, is destiny, and the poetic fates of Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath. Nobody can deny the truth in that; but was Plath's actual life also destined to be sacrificed to her talent entirely? This seems to me more of an insouciant, romantic view of "the beautiful and the damned" than a well rounded theory. On still another subject, I asked awhile ago if anyone knew if any color photos of Assia Wevill were available to the public. Can anyone help me with this? So far I've only seen the black and white images, which, while fascinating, don't seem to do the many descriptions of her justice. Thanks, and hope some of these ideas help, Mikki :-) Lisa A. Flowers
Well, we certainly are all entitled to our opinions, that is the wonderful thing about this site, debate is encouraged and difference of opinion is celebrated. I personally will always believe that "Lesbos" is entirely about the lovely Assia Wevill and Plath's negative reaction to her. It is known that Plath was not always entirely forthcoming with regard to certain details of her poems and their actual origin. I could do a (close reading) on the poem (which I have done for certain of my university classes) for this site, but frankly that would involve too much energy. Suffice it to say that many of the keywords and imagery in "Lesbos" directs the reader to a clear understanding of certain experiences Plath had with Wevill. At least in my opinion. Also thank you to the poster who provided additional informtion about the origins of the Electra complex, that was very interesting to know and I for one am now intrigued enough to do further investigation. Thank you. Therresa Kennedy
Elaine, thanks for posting the photo of Assia. Does anyone have any information about when the biography of Assia will be published? Amy Rea
Hoping some one can help me in regard to a particular poem written by SP. It was about her Grandmother's unconditional love. I lost my copy of the poem, and on and off for years, I've tried to find it again in books and on the net to no avail. Looking forward to your replies. Thanking you in anticipation. Anne
Hello. It's me again and I'm still having this difficulty with the "Wuthering Heights" poems and Plath's feelings about her visit. I would greatly appreciate any interpretations of this because of genuine interest and my exam is on Thursday. If anyone can help, either by email or by way of this forum, that would be great. Mikki
Freud is not the originator of the Electra complex. This is Jung's concept. Freud believed that both boys and girls have an Oedipal relationship with their mothers. The boy, however, completes the Oedipal complex, develops a strong superego, while the girl may have a variety of circuitous developmental routes. In the journals, Plath wonders whether she wished her father dead and then felt guilty when he obliged her and died. This wish is a distinctly Oedipal wish and may be symptomatic of a prolonged preoedipal dependency on her mother, which might be confirmed by Aurelia's sense of "symbiosis" with her daughter, and Plath's own feelings that there was too much closeness between her and her mother. I agree with Kim. "Lesbos" is not about Assia. Hughes left this poem out of the British editon of Ariel because he did not want the people Plath spent time with in Cornwall to see Plath's mockery. Lynda Bundtzen
I have just discovered your wonderful forum, and am intrigued by many of the postings, very insightful. I am about to embark on my Honours Research paper, and am doing this on Plath. I am thinking to compare her Journals (1950-1962) to the letters she write to her mother during the same time period...by comparing journals/letters I hope to explore the sort of discrepancy between what she was portraying to her mother and the psychological processes that she was going through as stated in her journals. Anybody have any further thoughts on this? I also just recently watched the movie, and was surprised to note how her mother was not represented as prevalently as she actually was in Sylvia's life. Her mother was the only family member present at her wedding when she married Ted in secret, and she wrote an emotional note to her brother Warren telling him how she wished he could meet her new husband, whom she then gushed about. It is curious to me that in the movie her mother meets ted after the marriage. It is evident to me that her relationship with her mother was complex, and a big part of who she was. I also felt that the actor used to portray Ted immediately gives the audience the visual impression of someone with harsh demeanour. I feel that the movie would have been more effective had they allowed the audience to arrive at their own conclusions on Ted Hughes. I almost felt bullied into forming this initial perception of him. Any thoughts on this? Unfortunately, Sylvia Plath is not widely studied in South Africa, and a great pity that is. The movie release is not doing particualrly well either due to the fact that the title Sylvia really does not mean a great deal to anyone here. A great forum, I certainly will pay a visit far more often. Charne
In response to Jen's question, yes, Plath's 1962 diary and all her papers housed at Smith College are fully accessible to undergrads as is the entire collection of the Mortimer Rare Book Room. Smith professors often bring students to the rare book room to view the diary, her journals, and the drafts of her Ariel poems. In addition to her papers, Smith also owns some of Plath's artwork, a cradle she painted, her writing desk, and her typewriter (some of which may be on display at the Grolier Club exhibition.) I was pretty embarrassed by my appearance in the A&E Biography, especially because my comments were taken out of context. Let me just say that I'm not one of the people who believes she is "Sylvia Plath reincarnated," as Susan Van Dyne says some of her students do. I admire her work a great deal, but she's not my very favorite poet, and my own poetry is quite different from hers. Although we are similar in some respects, I don't believe I have a "special bond" with her. I was simply responding to a question posed to me about what Plath and I had in common, and I hate that it made me sound like some starstruck Plathophile. There was a legitimate reason for my inclusion in the biography - I worked with the Ariel drafts for three years while at Smith, creating a register of the poems that will hopefully soon be available to scholars who cannot visit the collection in person. They'll be able to read online descriptions of the drafts of each poem and then request photocopies of the pages they would like to see. So, Jen, I may be young, but I think I've made a significant contribution to the world of Plath scholarship resource that those who are interested in Plathís writing process will find very useful. I've also had some possibly more intelligent-sounding quotes featured in newspapers and magazines. I know that I must have looked out of place alongside the older scholars featured on the program, but I wish people would not dismiss me simply because of my age. Shannon Hunt
I fail to see how "Lesbos" is directed at Assia Wevill specifically. Reading both Alexander and Stevenson, both basically state that Sylvia went to Cornwall to visit an American couple who had previously stayed with the Hughes at Court Green, and that "Lesbos'" subject is centered around this couple. Further, the speaker of "Lesbos" addresses the woman saying "you have one child, I have two" which further distances the poem from Assia, who had no children until after Plath died. Of course, "Lesbos" is about much more than just this couple, but to say it's about Assia I think is unfounded. Equally so is the idea that women who take up with married men are suffering from Electra complexes. Some of them might be, sure, but to give this as a major reason for being in a relationship with a married man is tenuous at best. I am basing my comments on this on experience rather than speculation. Kim
So, let me understand this, poems which are rather simplistic in appearance, which are starkly confessional [can] be filled with complex allegorical meaning, symbolic of complex unconscious motivations, and yet, human behavior is not motivated and/or controlled by those same complex and mysterious unconscious forces? I beg to differ. I will not apologise for my comments about the unconscious motivations of certain women engaged in duplicitous, adulterous relationships. The sad fact is they are often motivated by unconscious forces, often as explained in Freud's Electra complex. Usually without the woman or man's awareness. I have seen it and have the experience to recognize it when it stares me in the face. No amount of argument will ever dissuade me to believe otherwise. Sorry. If one is willing to accept that poetry is full of complex meaning, full of complex surrealist images from the unconscious, then with hope,that same individual understands that human behavior with regard to intimate interpersonal relationshiops is also governed by these same unconscious forces that disable us, control us and sabotage us. I also am a poet, (one of my poems will be published on a different website) have written poetry for the last 15 years and know full well, that as one poster mentioned, poems can often take on a life of their own, can present themselves in often misunderstood ways that only after time and examination by the author, can begin to present themselves in any coherent manner. I agree with that summation on the forces, often transient and fleeting, of intellectual illumination. I wholeheartedly agree. I also agree that Sylvia Plath was brilliant. I have met and interacted with individuals at my local university whom I would consider equally brilliant, but lets remember, (I certainly do) that often with brilliance comes incredible naivety and innocence. The emotional maturity and sometimes jaded understanding of human experience often comes after 35-40. So, do I still beleive that Plath was a "young" poet? yes, I do. Much like John Keats was a "young" poet. That does not detract however from my love of her poetry. I have learned a lot about my own poetic voice from reading her fierce and cutting verse and I will always be grateful for having had that experience. As posters here on the Plath Forum, we don't always have to agree. Thanks for the comments and take care people! Therresa Kennedy
I'm looking for a specific Sylvia Plath poem that I haven't been able to find at my local book stores. There are actually two both entitled "Ennui". Please if you have any information (either the actual poems or maybe a another website that has the poems) any information would be helpful) please email me with any information Thanks so much! Jessica Hatrak
I am studying and comparing the two poems entitled 'Wuthering Heights' by Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes. I would like to share comments about these poems and perhaps the reactions of the two poets to their visit to Wuthering Heights. I myself think that Sylvia is perhaps a little regretful that as she has returned there, she has found that things are not the same; she cannot find the sycamore in which Hughes photographed her. This is referred to in his poem; ' as the snapshot shows you'. Is she perhaps a bit resentful at Ted Hughes for a possible change in him, like the change in the place surrounding her? Any other comments or interpretations of this would be appreciated. Mikki
"Her later poems are so intensely confessional as to lose any doubt that they were anything more than a theraputic ranting, an angry cleansing of her over burndened psyche, than anything particularly infused with complex allegorical meaning." I just could not disagree more strongly with this statement, and like quite a few of us, feel compelled to yet again presume to speak for the poet. Perhaps Plath was "only 30" at the time of her death, but I will bet the farm that by that point she contained more scholarly and purely intellectual learning than most people twice her age; a Smith graduate who even her detractors described as "brilliant", a Fulbright scholar, engaging in poems that were mere "rants", completely personal attacks with no allegory or any deeper shades to them? In my view, absolutely not, and it's exactly this kind of analysis that has ruined Plath's reputation for much of the general audience(the people who recognize a few stanzas of "Daddy" or "Lady Lazarus", know that she put her head in an oven, think that she was an "angry housewife", etc.)-Frieda Hughes' famous "peanut eaters"-in her quoting of her mother. I don't think Plath was capable of writing a poem that was not infused with allegory, myth, beauty(yes, there's beauty in anger, and in pain-if any writer in the last century showed that, it was she); she simply had too much learning, a huge amount of intellectual knowledge, to do otherwise. It's often occured to me when reading her journals and her comments, written to herself how stupid she might well have thought me, (an almost perfect 790 on the English SATs)-because frankly upon reading some of her academic writing, it's pretty damned far beyond me...the comparison is akin to that between my high school math teacher and Robert Oppenheimer(ugh-Plath would hate that particular mention, but still). What she did do in the last poems was to "let go" in certain stylistic terms, to release herself from some of the very strict poetic forms she'd used for much of her life. But even if she wrote like a house afire, like a woman possessed at 4 in the morning, she never completely shook off her prodigious intellectual stores while doing so. As a result I fell there are absolutely many layers to be seen, even in "Lesbos"-perhaps especially there. And I must add, not apropos of Plath, but I really must object to the bizarre statement regarding [sic] "women who go 'after' married men" in supposedly playing out an Electra complex. What? I have know many women who were involved with married men. In each and every case, they not only didn't make the first move-or the second, or third-they were actively pursued. Assia Wevill interests me not at all, but from all accounts she had serious psychological problems; I certainly wouldn't use her as an example of women who get involved with married men-if that's the reason that entire assertion was brought up. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes people in adulterous relationships are just needy people in fix-both of them, male & female-not predators. I object to any women being grouped and judged in this manner. Not attacking, mind you, just responding. Jen
Therresa, "Lesbos" is only a rant poem and nothing more" begs the question of authorial intent (one which the critics have debated about quite extensively over the past fifty years). Is a poem only what the author intends it to be--or is it something separate, something more? Does it take on a life of its own once the author has set it down on paper? I believe it does. While I think it's useful to know what Plath intended when she made her poems, as a poet myself I know that often I do not necessarily know entirely what I "intend" when I myself make a poem. And the poems themselves teach me, once they are complete. They have depths to them that even I, the author, cannot entirely understand or reach. Not to mention the subconscious at work, and I think Plath's poems deal very much with the subconscious. In a conscious and unconscious way, if that makes sense. In any case, I thought the gentleman's reading was interesting, if a bit forced (particularly if you are looking at the poems from a purely authorially-intended view.) But didn't Plath herself say that's what a thesis was? In her Letters Home I recall her railing against academia and stating that she didn't want to spend all her life writing about a 200 year old poet just because no one had written about him before. Anyone who writes about Plath now is going to have a bit of trouble coming up with anything thats not at least slightly controversial or forced. At least that's my opinion. :-) Kate Durbin
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